HDX - why ripping WAV only?

Pepe, it's all about quality.  Without wishing to open a can of worms regarding lossless compression, WAV is the only format that absolutely guarantees the best sound quality, all other things being optimal.  The Naim ripping solution provides a rich metadata, and there are more and more rippers available that will do something similar (e.g. DBpoweramp) for WAV files.  Admittedly they are not quite as convenient as the containers provided for MP3, FLAC etc.. but ultimately it's the best possible performance that counts.

FWIW, In the tests I have done, I think I can tell a slight difference between FLAC and WAV, with a preference for the latter.

Thank you for the explanation (less processing). I store all of my music on NAS. The problem I have with WAV is, that I can´t use the ripped wave files for my ipod without extensive renaming/tagging and I don´t have the time to do this manually. A solution like the one offered from RipNAS (Ripping to WAV/FLAC and mp3 in one step) would be very convenient.

I think the key is choice - some will want to rip to other formats so you give them the choice. Others will not and so you set the default to Wav. Personally I like aiff (but that's me) and i think flac sounds rather good via the Uniti. Wav is nodoubt wonderful but unless you are storing metadata in a XML format like the UnitiServe tagging is a real pain.

Tog - supporting the right to choose - or not

I fully agree. I´m serious thinking about going back ripping with my Macbook instead of the HDX only becuase of the WAV tagging issue :-(

I think NAIM could solve the problem as discussed: WAV as default setting and menue option for FLAC and mp3.

Maybe in the future ....

Mediamonkey will transfer WAV to your portable device, and transcode it on the fly to whatever format you choose.

This *SHOULD* be in the software later in the year ... it's been looked at for a while and is scheduled for 1.5a SP3 or SP4 (SP2 should hopefully be out soon which is mainly fixes and not enhancements).

Phil

i would wonder how well the embedded OS of the HDX, and it processors, would handle compressing to FLAC. 
My guess is that if it could do this reasonably well, they would have included it.  FLAC compression is very slow on a legit PC/Mac.  For all we know, the HDX can't do it at all.

But it MUST be able to.  They MUST have tried it.  How else would they claim WAV to be superior without having the HDX rip to FLAC then comparing the two files.

Although, if FLAC was SO bad, why in the would they support it for playback?  If Naim cares so much about the sound quality, why do they only want to control the rip codec?  Including FLAC playback acknowledges the ubiquity of FLAC as one of the most popular, if not THE most used, lossless format for consumers.

So why not have the option to rip to FLAC?  My guess is that the HDX cant do it.

-patrick

We support many formats for playback that we would never use as an archiving format of choice - MP3, AAC etc - however we have to include them because you guys (the users) want them.

The hardware is up to the task of compressing to FLAC and when we were developing the servers originally we did do listening tests with many different formats but - annoying as it is to me who is from a computing background - the guys with golden ears here could always tell the difference between a FLAC source and a WAV source file. We can argue here that FLAC is lossless - I certainly did at the time - but the proof was in the pudding and the guys here could tell the difference consistently so we went with WAV as being the best source format.

As I said above - the ability to rip to WAV and have a shadow copy made in another format (MP3 etc.) for use with a portable music player is being implemented and will be included in a software release later this year all being well.

Cheers

Phil

Hallo
Im from denmark and my english is not that good. specialy not for high tech naim english but
well. I have a naim uniti just updated to3.2.0.0. my music (about 20gb) is in itune in acc, i have Verbatim Mediashare 1tb(nas) shall i change it all to wav.I have also got n-stream for my iphone 4 but all the coverart
does come up on the album. If I try on the folder line on my iphone and puch a band their tracks on the album
comes eks. 1,a,b,c and not in the original b.1,c,a. WHY NOT?

Unless the FLAC decoder is broken, that's nonsense...

Phil - it is ironic, that software like Vortexbox and Asset has had mp3 / alac mirroring built in for at least 18 months as well as full RAID functionality. Do you not feel sometimes that you may be trying to reinvent the wheel?



Tog

Mathematically it is utter nonsense - because FLAC is lossless it is possible to recreate the original format.
Audibly it is not nonsense at all - I've been commenting here for the last 18 months on all platforms I've tried, WAV sounds better than FLAC when streaming. It's an easy test to try...

Graham, How about flac transcoding to wav on the fly before streaming versus wav streaming? Is there a difference?

No idea. Sounds too hard to set up.

If you hear a difference between FLAC and Wave files, it is down to the artefacts in the renderer/decoder. The PCM conveyed in the two file formats is identical unless there is a fault or bug. Also remember that Wave files of PCM produced by different encoders aren't all the same. The Wave file format allow variation on how the PCM is encapsulated and packaged, and I would suspect if you are hearing differences between Wave and FLAC you will be hearing differences between Wave files created by certain different ripper/encoders.



Simon

How is it too hard to set up? One or two clicks should do it easily. What Server are you using? Are you sure you have set the rest of it up right?

Phil,

It's good to hear there's still development going on for the HDX!

Regards,
Michel

Hi Phil,



Again, it's good to get some feedback on upcoming software releases. It would be good if you guys could give us a roadmap of what is happening with the software in the coming year. Just so people know that their experiences are not falling on deaf ears or people keep inundating you with requests for something that is planned.

One little observation on the Flac/wav debate; at the moment the HDX only allows us to add to the database by ripping a CD to WAV. If I download hi-res files you have to use a container such as FLAC for the metadata and place them on a network share for the HDX to see them. Are we going to see this behaviour change in future versions of the software.

Finally could you let us know when the iPad version of N-Serve will be available.

Thanks,

Rich

I'd certainly buy tickets for an event where the "golden eared" of Naim displayed their ability to choose between FLAC and WAV on Naim system in a blind test ;-)

I wonder if the test has been repeated with an HDX feeding an nDAC?

It's also subject to the version of open-source FLAC decoder library used–that said, I've done myself a couple of A-B-X comparisons using dBpoweramp for ripping (using the same disc to rip to both WAV and FLAC) and the difference remains, even when using the mk l version of Linn's Akurate DS with a NETGEAR ReadyNAS Duo running Twonky 4.x

The FLAC was more specular, with etchy detail, but did not have as much musical flow or solidity as the PCM WAV file–kind of ironic, really....

As always–your mileage may vary–if you hear no difference, don't worry about it.

I don't have golden ears as I can't hear the difference between ALAC, FLAC, WAV or AIFF, but then I can't hear the difference between rips made with iTunes and other rippers. I use AIFF for my ripped files, but perhaps I should have used something else, but as I can't hear the difference between two identical files (with respect to the PCM) then perhaps I'll stick with what I've got.

@rhr They have said March for n-stream and April possibly for n-serve I think.



My ears are far from golden but the differences I hear between aiff / flac / wav often have more to do with how much I have had to drink or what kind of day I have had than anything else.



Tog

Hi David, I have also done A B listening sessions with Wave files and FLAC at different compression levels. I found with a squeezebox 3 it was quite sensitive to FLAC compression levels, but wave files sounded bland, and to be honest it was with 320k MP3 it was most comfortable!!! I have also played around with a Qute and HDX, but I have to admit currently other than casual Internet radio surfing, my digital playback is strictly CD on my CDS3, as with streaming or file playback there appeared currently too many variables, and  sonically it was significantly behind the CDS3 in my opinion, even with XPS2 feeding nDACs with USB and SPDIF etc.

I was rather disappointed at the time, and I will listen eagerly to the NDX when I can to see if it has got closer to my beloved CDS3's musical sound, or perhaps I have just been spoilt with the CDS3



Simon

File information can be embedded in WAV files. (this tag editor for example can embed 5 types of tags in WAV files)