HDX - why ripping WAV only?

Posted by: Pepe68 on 04 March 2011

Hi,
I´m wondernig why NAIM gives no option for changing the ripping format from WAV to FLAC. Is there any advantage behind the decision for ripping to WAV only? In daily usage the WAV format seems to be not the best option, because of  missing file information. I think the music standard now seems to be FLAC, right? An update to change the format would be an good option for all users.
Posted on: 10 March 2011 by DavidDever
Originally Posted by Simon-in-Suffolk:
Hi David, I have also done A B listening sessions with Wave files and FLAC at different compression levels. I found with a squeezebox 3 it was quite sensitive to FLAC compression levels, but wave files sounded bland, and to be honest it was with 320k MP3 it was most comfortable!!! I have also played around with a Qute and HDX, but I have to admit currently other than casual Internet radio surfing, my digital playback is strictly CD on my CDS3, as with streaming or file playback there appeared currently too many variables, and  sonically it was significantly behind the CDS3 in my opinion, even with XPS2 feeding nDACs with USB and SPDIF etc.
I was rather disappointed at the time, and I will listen eagerly to the NDX when I can to see if it has got closer to my beloved CDS3's musical sound, or perhaps I have just been spoilt with the CDS3

Simon

Why is that not surprising? You get normalization and bandwidth filtering on an MP3 as an artifact of the encoding process, making it far more "enjoyable" if not accurate.

In fact–this may be the faintest praise I've seen for Squeezebox performance yet (that compressed files actually sound better than uncompressed ones)...!
Posted on: 10 March 2011 by Simon-in-Suffolk
Dave, I accept the bandwidth limiting to some extent, but I don't normalise my mp3s. BTW I use LAME as my mp3 encoder as it  is highly configurable, it's open source and I am yet to better it. The difference between ITunes and LAME for the same compression settings is so significant, I do wonder if Apple deliberately make it's mp3 encoding support so mediocre, to encourage use of it's own proprietary formats.

Simon

Posted on: 11 March 2011 by EJS
All,

A good thread - I assume it is difficult / impossible to convert Naim's tagging info into another container vice versa? My new HDX should arrive in a couple of weeks time, and while I will gladly rip twice (on HDX and OSX), I find the issue of sharing the music and metadata storage interesting for back-up purposes. 

Incidentally, what is the most convenient way to back-up short of setting up a NAS? Can I access the HDX drive from the mac and do a simple copy to a large USB drive?

Cheers,

EJ
Posted on: 11 March 2011 by Tog
I use a monthly snapshot - I don't add thousands of files, of my itunes folder to several backup drives.

Tog
Posted on: 07 June 2012 by Johan
Originally Posted by Phil Harris:
We support many formats for playback that we would never use as an archiving format of choice - MP3, AAC etc - however we have to include them because you guys (the users) want them.

The hardware is up to the task of compressing to FLAC and when we were developing the servers originally we did do listening tests with many different formats but - annoying as it is to me who is from a computing background - the guys with golden ears here could always tell the difference between a FLAC source and a WAV source file. We can argue here that FLAC is lossless - I certainly did at the time - but the proof was in the pudding and the guys here could tell the difference consistently so we went with WAV as being the best source format.

As I said above - the ability to rip to WAV and have a shadow copy made in another format (MP3 etc.) for use with a portable music player is being implemented and will be included in a software release later this year all being well.

Cheers

Phil

Hi, I ran into this thread searching for a solution on this topic. I need a smoth solution to get my Unitiserve WAV files to a portable media.

 

Is the ability with "Shadow Copy" (e.g. MP3, AAC) now available?  Have I missed something?

 

Thanks for any advice!

 

/Johan

Posted on: 07 June 2012 by Phil Harris
Originally Posted by Johan:
Originally Posted by Phil Harris:
 
Hi, I ran into this thread searching for a solution on this topic. I need a smoth solution to get my Unitiserve WAV files to a portable media.

 

Is the ability with "Shadow Copy" (e.g. MP3, AAC) now available?  Have I missed something?

 

Thanks for any advice!

 

/Johan

 

It will be included in the 1.7 software release due later this year...

 

Cheers

 

Phil

Posted on: 07 June 2012 by Gilles

Hi,

 

I remember (but maybe I am wrong as my memory has some flaws) that a guy from the Naim technical support was explaining the difference between FLAC and WAV by the fact that, as FLAC are compressed it generates more CPU activity and in the end, noise.

This makes sense to me. Then, what about uncompressed FLAC (that's the format I personally use for my rips)?

As someone already said, one solution would be the server to convert on the fly the FLAC to WAV.

 

P.S.: sorry for the mistakes. I am not English mother tongue.

 

 

Posted on: 08 June 2012 by Mr Underhill
Originally Posted by Graham Russell:
Originally Posted by bubbleguuum:
Originally Posted by Phil Harris:
the guys with golden ears here could always tell the difference between a FLAC source and a WAV source file

Unless the FLAC decoder is broken, that's nonsense...
Mathematically it is utter nonsense - because FLAC is lossless it is possible to recreate the original format.
Audibly it is not nonsense at all - I've been commenting here for the last 18 months on all platforms I've tried, WAV sounds better than FLAC when streaming. It's an easy test to try...

+1

Posted on: 08 June 2012 by Mr Underhill
Originally Posted by Simon-in-Suffolk:
If you hear a difference between FLAC and Wave files, it is down to the artefacts in the renderer/decoder. The PCM conveyed in the two file formats is identical unless there is a fault or bug. Also remember that Wave files of PCM produced by different encoders aren't all the same. The Wave file format allow variation on how the PCM is encapsulated and packaged, and I would suspect if you are hearing differences between Wave and FLAC you will be hearing differences between Wave files created by certain different ripper/encoders.

Simon

I could not hear any difference between Flac and Wav - until I went to Graham's.

 

There it was VERY easy to pick, with WAV being preference. This was played back via my CMP2 laptop, or Graham's Linux server. Both into 555PSU/nDAC + 555 amps.

 

At home - still no difference .......until .... I bought the NS01. Now I COULD hear the same difference.

 

I wouldn't hazard an explaination, just stating what I can hear.

 

Upshot.

 

Expanded all my flac to WAV, losing the hours I had spent updating the MetaData in the flac files - although I still have copies.

 

M

Posted on: 08 June 2012 by Mr Underhill
Originally Posted by Phil Harris:
 - the guys with golden ears here could always tell the difference between a FLAC source and a WAV source file.

Cheers

Phil

Hi Phil,

 

Did that include uncompressed FLAC?

 

I have a LOT of files that were ripped independently, or bought from online sources, will the new software include the ability to edit and add meta-data to the db for 'share' files?

 

--I'll do a test on this myself. I REALLY want to get the ability to easily find and play my files - by genre for instance.

 

Thx,

 

M

Posted on: 09 June 2012 by Simon-in-Suffolk

Hi Mr Underhill, that reference of mine you posted is quite old :-). Since then I conducted many tests and WAV file  deconstruction using specialist tools, and assuming there was no CD offset issue with the ripper, the PCM in the WAV files of many sources was identical, no matter what WAV file construct was used.

 

Now to the point on FLACs, I have not tried uncompressed FLACs, (I can't see the point), but if the data is presented as simple PCM left and right hand channel data, like WAV or AIF I can't see it being problematic on decode.

 

To the point on FLAC being loss less and therefore it can't  possibly be heard.... I think we have discussed that many times on this forum, and those chaps/chapesses at Naim have been busy designing the NDS streamer circuitry to mitigate this. More energy is required to decode FLAC than WAV in terms of processor clock cycles. Processors create RF noise. RF noise modulates digital clocks and modulate (inter modulates) analogue circuitry (both mathematically and audibly). This is extremely low level but is there.above the noise floor. The NDS, so i read, has been designed with greater EM decoupling and screening between the streaming decoding board and the delicate digital clocks and analogue circuitry. Therefore I am looking forward to hear whether FLAC still sounds inferior to WAV to my not very golden ears or whether we have equality!!

 

Currently however it's a moot point, I just click an option on Asset and all FLACs are transcoded to WAV and sois not hugely important for me. 

 

I am more interested to hear the decoupling from the TCP/IP stack where network frame processing are harder to control.

Simon

Posted on: 09 June 2012 by Mr Underhill

Hi Simon,

 

Just read back through the thread, lookign at the dates - this IS old isn't it.

 

I was supporting Graham's observation - but it was Soooo long ago that I'll just sign off.

 

M

Posted on: 11 June 2012 by m0omo0
Originally Posted by Phil Harris:
 It will be included in the 1.7 software release due later this year...

 

Cheers

 

Phil

Great news, thanks Phil !

 

Now that moves the finger closer to the trigger...

 

Methinks one of the great strengths of the Naim ripping solution is the availability of the professionally curated Rovi database for tagging. Strangely overlooked, but maybe it's just me.

 

Will that allow existing rips to be transcoded afterwards or will it work only during (or immediately after) ripping ?

 

And, shall I dare ask... ETA ? (Come on! Later this year... Only 7 months to go. You can speak fearlessly, whatever month you say we add two !  )

 

Maurice

Posted on: 11 June 2012 by Phil Harris

Come on guys - I'm not going to get drawn into release dates that haven't even been decided here yet! I'll tell you what I can tell you but ...

 

Phil

Posted on: 11 June 2012 by m0omo0

All right, all right, just trying !