Bristol Cars in trouble

Posted by: backfromoz on 10 March 2011

Dear All,
A little bit of my childhood may bite the dust. When at school in bristol in early 70's an old boy lived near the school and he owned a very beautiful dark metallic blue Bristol 411 series 3. He was always impeccably dressed and he drove equally elegantly.

This set up a fascination for this strange company. Essentially its whole life has been influenced by one man. Baronet White, Anthony Crook and Toby Silverton.

Mr Silverton a long time customer bought the company from Anthony Crook and set about upgrading the cars and developing the first truly new car since the 1960's the Fighter. He also reestablished the refurbishment and rebuilding and upgrading of the older cars. He was developing a 2.5 litre version of the old BMW Bristol 2 litre 0f the 1930's. In the late 60's bristol adopted Chrysler Canada V8's and gearboxes. The Fighter used the Dodge Viper V10 engine and transmission and they developed a 1000hp version of this engine that theoretically would enable the car to exceed 250mph. The aerodynamics were so good that extraneous wings were not required as the underside of the car had a venturi to do the same job.

It seems that about 200 cars per annum was not enough to allow this amazing company to survive. This is very sad in this current time as many cars that are supposd to be bespoke are made by the thousand. If i had the wherewithall i would have a 403 and a 411 series 3. I will have to console myself with my books on the history of Bristol.

When Dunlop developed the first run flat tyre, it was deemed good for 70mph. Anthony Crook jumped into the bristol development car and proceeded down the Brabazon runway at Filton at 140mph and then blew the tyre. The car pulled up straight and true with no drama. Dunlop were reported to be terrifed then concerned then incredulous then pleasingly relieved.

The 412/Brittania turbo had a neat bypass system for the turbo to overcome the horrendous turbo lag of the day (SAAB 99 anyone). The turbo was always in the gas flow and hence running at a high enough speed so the lag was markedly reduced giving a very progressive increase in power.

I would still love one of the cars but short of the lottery that is not to be.

Sniff sniff wipe away a tear. Is there a more charismatic eccentric car manufacturer than Bristol?

David

Posted on: 10 March 2011 by garyi

Wow consider the return key there my friend/

Posted on: 10 March 2011 by backfromoz

after i had typed it , the system went nuts and would not allow me to submit it. Then all of a sudden it was done minus some punctuation and order. So it is basically a single line of almost unreadable prose.

Sorry David

Posted on: 10 March 2011 by garyi

I am not really one to comment my grammar and spelling is almost famous.

Posted on: 10 March 2011 by backfromoz

wow computer king i found the edit function.

So hopefully it reads better

David

Posted on: 10 March 2011 by james n

Lovely engineering. Styling best appreciated on a dark, moonless night ...

Posted on: 10 March 2011 by shoot6x7

Just like anything these days, unless it's mass produced the necessary safety checks, test crashes and other such mega expenses are out of the hands of anyone wanting to make anything resembling a small-production run car.

Posted on: 10 March 2011 by BigH47

Fighter was one of Bristols better looking cars.

Posted on: 10 March 2011 by backfromoz

what about the 406 Zagato only 6 made

or the 404 coupe only a few made

402 convertible a handfull made

or the unique 407 coupe that Anthony Crook made for his daughter

also remember how many very successful racing cars used the 2 litre straight 6

Cooper
AC
Arnolt

and a few others

so much from such a small concern

I believe that one of the 6 cylinder cars did 1 million miles just with normal servicing.

David

Posted on: 11 March 2011 by Bruce Woodhouse

I'd not heard they were in trouble but it is hardly an enormous surprise. I rather liked the Fighter, actually sat in one a few years ago, the owner was car mad we did a 'show me yours and I'll show you mine' because I was out in my Caterham. Did not get a ride though!

I suspect Lotus to follow within 3 years, another great British brand (even if now Malysian owned). I have no faith whatsoever that their 'grand plan' will come to fruition, not least because they will not survive until the mooted launch dates. It will take also takea a huge re-invention of the brand to persuade people to part with Porsche/Ferrari money for a future Lotus if they do ever get that far. Apparently sales have died after the announcement because people don't want 'old' models; not that they were doing too well with the Evora even beforehand. As for the Elise, it had its moment (or rather decades). Incidentally so has mine, I sold it this week.

Morgan Cars the largest remaining British car manufacturer? I believe they are doing OK too.

Bruce

Posted on: 11 March 2011 by backfromoz

Morgan have BMW assistance so should be OK.

As for Lotus well looking at the plans there are too many me too cars.

They should look at the original Elite of the 1950's.

HMMMM

Lightweight
1300cc semi race engine
Fabulous Chassis/bodyshell, oh yeah mk2 had Bristol bodyshells/chassisunit
very clever suspension Chapman Strut.

This is what they should make.

How about taking on the SMART Roadster Coupe but using the new FIAT Twin Air 2 cylinder engine. The mistake that SMART made was crap engine and hopeless gearbox, but great little sports cars.

They desparately need to follow Chapmans model of JUST ADD LIGHTNESS.

Many supercars today weigh a massive amount with 600hp .

Your Caterham Bruce has not been surpassed in 50 years. Still has small strong chassis and light powerful engines.

Lotus should stick to what it does well

David

Posted on: 11 March 2011 by Bruce Woodhouse

David

Although in many ways I agree with everything you say there is one problem; profitability. Elise (and it's offshoots) makes no money, depite long having absorbed R+D costs. To make money from a lightweight niche sportscar either requires serious volumes, a far more efficient manufacturing process or halo models with far greater margins. The first two appear beyond Lotus, and going upmarket for margins has some logic if they could do it. I just don't believe in the product plan, or that they can build a car that looks, feels and acts like a real competitor in the rarefied markets they are targeting at £80k and upwards.

Bruce

Posted on: 11 March 2011 by Derry

Bristol and Morgan have a cachet which has nothing to do with excellent design or engineering.

Posted on: 11 March 2011 by backfromoz

Hi Derry,

Morgan use hydroforming for the body panels.

Bristol manage immense strength of the body chassis unit with marked lightness. And they were early adopters of Turbocharging, variable rate dampers, self levelling suspension. I will admit aesthetic design is in the eye of the beholder. The spare wheel and battery and jack in the front wings was a neat idea.

David

Posted on: 11 March 2011 by mudwolf

I spent the afternoon yesterday on Top Gear website watching sections of old shows. It was so entertaining I went for 3 hours watching it, till I had to clean up for a concert. They have such fun.

Sad that like many things the rigorous testing and legal issues is closing down many individual companies like the car companies that were one major person's creative idea. I love going to old car shows, I"ve seen them set up in Pasadena and other out of the way areas. It's a great look into the history of design and then there's all of you that know so much about the engineering and innovations.

Favorite Top Gear was on the red GT40 the guy bought. I loved that car. Saw one on the street when in summer school back in Philly. Hot day, just out of 2 hours of Algebra and this rumble from a car as I was crossing the street. I think I wet myself, it was dark green with white stripes. You didn't see cars like that in Philly '69.

Posted on: 12 March 2011 by rsch

Originally Posted by Bruce Woodhouse:

I think that Lotus doing so will kill themselves, worlwide there is no real alternative for light small/affordable
sports cars like Elise/Exige. I have owned several of them (Cup 260 at the moment). The only real alternative for me is Ferrari or the new Mc Laren. but the cost is 4 times as much.
On the other hand I' d never a buy a Lotus weighting 1500 kg at £ 100k plus with a crappy powertrain.
Moreover the new managment to my eyes is a mess of ideas from different cultures, Ferrari Amg, Porsche
and so on. The greatest cars or ideas always spawned from singles or few individuals, see Gordon Murray,
Chapman etc.
A raeal pity If Bristol would disappear, It's one of the last true individual car company.

Posted on: 12 March 2011 by Derry

Anyone remember the programme "Troubleshooter" where John Harvey-Jones went to the Morgan factory in Malvern?

He was talking to an employee who said he had worked there for 50 years. Harvey-Jones said "Fifty years! I bet you've seen some changes".

The guy thought for a minute and replied "No, not really".

Posted on: 12 March 2011 by Tony Lockhart

Lol. Brilliant.

Posted on: 12 March 2011 by Stone Rose

Re: Lotus Cars.

I've no idea how well they are selling or what return on investment the cars are making but I know Lotus are recruiting lots of engineers at present. Historically their consultantcy business has kept their heads above water and made them worth buying and maybe that's why they are recruiting. But lets hope the recruitment drive is a long term postive.

Posted on: 14 March 2011 by Bruce Woodhouse

I keep hearing how nice it would be if Lotus made a lightweight/small/affordable sportscar (and surely it would be) but not how they might make a profit by doing so.

The Elise doesn't (and frankly that is not that affordable either)

Bruce

Posted on: 14 March 2011 by backfromoz

In my youth the choice for small fun sportscars was pretty good.

Austin Healey Sprite
M G MIdget
M G B
Triumph Spitfire
Triumph Vitesse
Mini Marcos
Ginetta G4,G15
Clan Crusader
Davrian
Honda S800

Now what these ALL had was:

Small engine
Low power
Fuel efficient
nippy
wonderful handling
poor roadholding
Top speed around 80-90mph
0-60 from 10secs upwards

Most of all they were FUN

So today we have Midas, GTM who are trying to make nippy sports cars but do not seem to be able to convert from kit Car status.

No manufacturer today is making cars like the above.

Many engines today can deliver 100hp/litre with amazing economy.

So what we need on our roads today is a top whack of 100mph with 0-60 mph of say 8 secs and fuel economy of 40mpg. Weight of vehicle less than 1000kg.

we do not need a 1500kg 250 bhp 150mph me too sportscar.

What i have suggested would also be insurance friendly too.

So the only car i can think of that offers the above would be an updated SMART roadster/coupe but using a better engine and gearbox.

FIAT has the new Twin Air that offers 105bhp in top spec with a 6 speed manual box.

If i ws in the market for a super car it would be a porsche 911 997 GTS. But this offers far too much performance for todays roads and conditions.

David

Posted on: 14 March 2011 by BigH47

MX5/Miata is the only recent , A-H Sprite type vehicle.

Wonderful handling and poor roadholding isn't that counter intuitive?

Posted on: 14 March 2011 by backfromoz

in them olden days you could steer a car on the throttle exploiting the balance of the car (handling) against the grip (roadholding). Due to crap tyres 30 years ago one could drift/slide the car.

Today the grip offered by most cars usually outweighs the abilities of the driver so when a car today lets go it is going much faster than the driver can cope with and the transition from doing what it is told and heading towards the hedgerows is way too quick. Whereas before, the car let go earlier but in a benign manner which you could catch and indeed use to negotiate the bend.

Driving a Mini Cooper S meant that because it was not too fast and it had fabulous handling you never had to slow down for the corners. This equals fun and enjoyment from the car. Left foot braking and use of handbreak will be familiar to mini owners of a few years ago.

It is not the speed of the car that gives pleasure, but the controlling of the dynamics of the car.

The MX5 today is a wonderful little beast, much better if BBR-GTI have breathed on it. But it has 1.6,1.8 and 2 litre engines.

David

Posted on: 14 March 2011 by Bruce Woodhouse

Keen drivers rave about handling and 'driftability' etc etc but when it comes to volume sales people want refinement, comfort, gadgets, economical performance and safety kit galore. Hard to do in a lighweight, and you've also got to sell a lot of lightweight cheap cars to make a profit. Ask Smart! Lightweight engineering is expensive.

A new MX-5 is about 1200kg, not that light but I have to agree they have been a great series of vehicles. I owned a Mk2 and it had just enough power and just enough feel to make trips a real pleasure without being crazy.

I have bought a nice mildly sporty little Honda CRZ in place of my Elise and 80% of the time it will be as enjoyable, or actually more so. I'll miss the 20% somewhat but not too badly I hope.

I think the only hope for Lotus to survive is for it to be 'adopted' by a big manufacturer (rather like Alfa/Fiat or Mini/BMW). That way it can continue to pursue a purer sporty identity with the savings of shared technologies and componentry etc. How about Jaguar/Lotus? Toyota/Lotus?

Bruce

PS I note the mention of the Fiat group Multi-Air engines. As I was looking for my new car I noted how petrol engine technology is really embracing the performance/economy issues. Light-pressure turbos, supercharge/turbo combinations, mild hybrids like the Honda and the Multi-Air series. I test drove 1.4 and 1.7 Multi-Air Alfa Mito/Giulietta and the engines were really impressive for performance, character and excellent economy. Not enough to get me back into an Alfa though as the vehicles themselves dissapointed in a variety of ways.

Posted on: 21 April 2011 by backfromoz

Dear All,

great news Bristol has been saved.

And in a little twist of fate it has been bought by Fraser Nash.

Bristol many years ago was working with F.N. as a supplier of engines and also as a dealer.

So the Bristol story continues.

No mention of either Tony Crook or Toby Silverton in the news paper article.

They did mention Hybrid technologies as this is what F.N. are involved in.

regards David

Posted on: 22 April 2011 by Derry

Bristol used big petrol guzzling engines. Fraser Nash used to make petrol guzzling cars until they disappeared years ago.

I have no idea who Fraser Nash is now except that someone is using a once respected marque to produce some hybrid abomination...if the above is true.