hosing Japanese Nuclear reactor with sea water

Posted by: backfromoz on 12 March 2011

I am no nuclear physicist but they are pouring sea water onto the damaged reactor in order to prevent core meltdown.
 
They have stated that radiation levels up by 10 times compared to normal.

So what does someone with more knowledge than me consider can/will happen?

David

thankfully a long way away
Posted on: 20 March 2011 by Willy
It's clear that there is a lack of clarity around the situation in Fukushima, and no doubt the Japanese "saving face" culture plays it's part. However, IMHO, by far the biggest problem here has been the role of the press in extrapolating the "end of the world" from this incident. Nothing like a good scare story to sell papers or keep the masses tuned in.

Sea water is being pumped into the reactors for cooling, has been for some days now, not an ideal scenario but will be laid out in the operations manual as standard procedure in this situation. (The experimental reactors I worked on in the UK could be coupled up to mains water in such a situation). I'm unclear as to why they haven't been able to pump water to the spent rod storage ponds, could be insufficient power for this (they'd rightly focus on cooling the reactors) or damage to the pumping systems.

So far the operators have played it by the book and it is unlikely that anyone will suffer any lasting harm as a result of the incident.

With regard to Iodine tablets again it's unclear if anyone actually needs them. Has the release of radioactive iodine reached the threshold at which it represents a danger to health?



Lewis Page has been running a series of articles on www.theregister.co.uk that have taken a more informed view of events in Fukushima and are well worth a read.



Willy.
Posted on: 20 March 2011 by Mike-B
So right David,   the cultural millstone of Saving Face is the bane of Japan.

My old cmpy used engines from Japan & I was part of the engine "partnership" (joke) working group.
The refusal to first accept a problem existed, then the correction path, & in a reasonable time frame & finally responsibility was shocking.   
We used to have meetings to plan the face saving path to give to them before meetings.

The other issue is that of respect for seniority & rank,  its not possible to critique decisions or question those up the ladder.  A bad or wrong decision could lead to months before someone more senior than the decision maker realises the problem & orders a change of direction.

The culture was totally 180 degrees opposite from our very open & seniority free USA/Europe ways. 
And like you I can see all this going on under the reactor process we are all witness to at the moment.
Posted on: 20 March 2011 by Tony Lockhart
At least the captain of this coastguard boat made the right decision and turned towards the wave: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...youtube_gdata_player Scary.
Posted on: 20 March 2011 by u77033103172058601
Not as scary as the irrational comments posted below the video.
Posted on: 20 March 2011 by David Scott
I was at school with a bloke called obscenityofatomictech. I wonder if it's him?
Posted on: 20 March 2011 by backfromoz
the irrational cant spell or use grammar, so their ill informed nonsense should be dealt with due contempt.

The cloud of smoke has reached the UK aaaarrrrrrrggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

they were right hha hhaa

Mind you i went round the nuclear power station near Bristol while at school. For an ignorant schoolboy it was great fun till we tried to leave.

had to have a geiger counter passed over each student.

One wag asked what would happen if it went off. The reply was: We would not be having this conversation.

Gave us something to talk about on the coach back to school.

david
Posted on: 20 March 2011 by JeremyB
Willy: Yes. See paragraph below from NY times today.

Spinach from a farm in Hitachi, about 45 miles (70 kilometers) from the plant, contained 27 times the amount of iodine that is generally considered safe, while cesium levels were about four times higher than what is deemed safe by Japan. Meanwhile, raw milk from a dairy farm in Iitate, about 18 miles (30 kilometers) from the plant, contained iodine levels that were 17 times higher than those considered safe, and milk had iodine levels that were slightly above amounts considered safe.




Originally Posted by Willy:

With regard to Iodine tablets again it's unclear if anyone actually needs them. Has the release of radioactive iodine reached the threshold at which it represents a danger to health?

Posted on: 20 March 2011 by Willy
In which case a diet of tinned food supplemented by iodine tablets would be in order for a while.



Willy.
Posted on: 20 March 2011 by Willy
Originally Posted by backfromoz:


       


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had to have a geiger counter passed over each student.

One wag asked what would happen if it went off. The reply was: We would not be having this conversation.

Gave us something to talk about on the coach back to school.

david





Been there, done that. A fuel pin leaked in the fuel change flask. Got rather noisy. All surface contamination which didn't penetrate my multiple layers (3 pairs of gloves as standard). An additional pee sample was requested (over and above the standard fortnightly one) and checked out as clear. Since I was young with potential for future reproduction someone older got to clear up the mess. Kids turned out with one head each.



Willy.
Posted on: 24 March 2011 by mudwolf
You'd think there would have been back up, of back up systems.  That's what engineers and safety is about.  It is putting the whole world on issue of nuclear energy.  

We have 2 in CA down south San Onofre near my folks, they have a sea wall to repel any water (ha) and records show safety compliance has not been good at all.  Some valves have been stuck for years. The list of infractions is horrible. It was built late 60s just before I moved nearby in 70 at 16.

Then Diablo up on Central Coast and they've both had new faultlines discovered since they were put in.  Diablo was the reactor suggested in the movie "China Syndrome" It had some improvements to it but "experts say" we wouldn't go beyond a 7.5 quake.

The old tag line "Don't fool with Mother Nature" for a butter commercial comes to mind.
Posted on: 24 March 2011 by Willy
Originally Posted by mudwolf:


       


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        You'd think there would have been back up, of back up systems.  That's what engineers and safety is about.





There are indeed backups for the backups. For example on the reactor I worked on:



1) No break diesels. An electric motor driving a flywheel. When there's a power cut the flywheel is clutched onto a diesel engine starting it and the motor goes into generating instead of driving the flywheel. 3 of those, two running at any time.



2) Another fixed standby generator that has to be started manually if all three of he no break diesel generators fail.



3) A mobile generator set that is held some distance from the fixed ones and can be brought to the reactor and connected up.



4) A set of batteries under the floor of the reactor emergency control room that could supply power for I think it was 8 hours.



5) A facility to hook up to pump mains water into the reactor.



More modern reactors have evolved considerably and have even higher levels of redundancy and safety built in. Would agree that we should pension off a lot of the older designs and build more new ones.



Willy.