NDX review + N-steam rant!

Posted by: adymcd on 14 March 2011

My system comprises of the following 252/SC2/250.2/DAC/XPS2. I have a Ripnas attached to the network, all hardwired, which stores my music as flac. I have done the whole debate on which file storage format works and for me personally I couldn't tell any difference between the lossless formats on offer. For me personally I chose the Ripnas for the ease of use in the end.

Previous streamimg solutions are via SB touch, Lavry, Majik DS, Akurate DS MK1 and mac/hiface.

I don't have 'professional' ears by any means and so won't be using any of the technical lingo that quite often gets spoken about in these situations.

Lets start with the good first, the NDX is a very good bit of kit, I have had it now for about two weeks and in true fashion it just seems to keep improving. For ease I have taken the digital out and connected it straight into the dac, basically removing my mac/hiface. Initially I questioned my logic of buying the unit blind without a demo as there were no real differences that stood out. Having listened no to it for two weeks all I can say is wow! There is a level of detail present that I have never heard before I am listening to Alison Krauss and Holy Cole at the moment and for the first time in my life I can shut my eyes and actually believe that she is singing right there in front of me. The sound stage is also lot bigger than before and more easy for me to pick out whilst the areas in between seem quieter if that makes sense. On other things such as the Black Eyed Peas the low end resolution and control is far more than before. The base is tighter and more controlled yet the benefits of before remain. It is like have a new music collection not in a dramatic way but in a good way.

For me it has taken everything I liked about the NDAC and improved it. My original thought was to sell the NDAC and use the XPS2 on the NDX, now I will need a good listen to see if that is the case

Now for the bad. N-stream, this has to be one of the worst systems I have ever used, I don't know if I am doing something wrong or if this is just as good as it is. For reference I have changed nothing about the way my music is stored or delivered into my hifi.

It is very laggy between screen changes and I only have around 200 cds ripped at the moment. Tracks don't appear in the order they are on the cd. Artwork is hit and miss I often get the UPNP logo. If you browse by artist, select an artist it then dumps all of the cd's together. I still can't get the volume side of the program to work. There is no time remaining for the track.

In a nutshell it is in my opinion not great and that is being kind how a company such as Naim feels this is an acceptable solution in a hifi system costing £17k+ is beyond me. Why is it such as Chorus is developed and maintained by one guy in his back room and it works but this misses the mark by a mile.

Please accept these are only my opinions, over the next week or so I will try the NDX bare and with the XPS2 attached to it and update the thread. To end on a positive WELL DONE Naim the NDX is truly outstanding for me.

Posted on: 14 March 2011 by pcstockton

The good thing is you have other options for control. Some with less control in some areas (volume) and more in others .... None of which will affect your sound quality.

For what it is worth, and to pre-echo future responses, your network and UPNP server have a lot to do with how fast things are and if art shows up or not.

-p

Posted on: 14 March 2011 by Tog

Welcome to n-stream

Some of us have been saying this for months.

Well since August 2010. Thousands on kit and then £24 on n-stream.

Slow, buggy, infuriating, did I mention slow and rather green. @Patrick stop trying to persude yourself it's the UPnP server's fault n-stream is pretty poor.

Apparently it will get better soon... Not sure it will get faster though

Apple Remote anyone?

Tog

Posted on: 14 March 2011 by adymcd

Originally Posted by pcstockton:

What other options are you refering to?

My network has not changed, it all works well via Apple Remote and Chorus.

Posted on: 14 March 2011 by pcstockton

Tog,

Im not trying persuade anyone of anything....except to maybe use PlugPlayer and J River. I use Remote App with Foobar at least once a day.

If you read my post you will I said "future responses", meaning "not mine".

That said, my two points about art and speed are very valid.

Album art is handled differently in JRMC than Foobar. They both look different in Plugplayer. Foobar is crisper. Presumably they are serving up pics of different resolutions. Also it's speed varies in different respects given which server PP is controlling.

And it doesn't end there. The control points vary as well. PlugPlayer is much quicker to populate the cover "thumbnails" than Remote App. Responses between tracks is a tiny bit quicker on Remote.

Remote wont display some art (due to size, it appears anything over about 1.2MB), although it seems to grab a bigger resolution than PP. PP resizes everything to 400x400 max, but in turn displays everything.

Anyway..... there are options for all. Pick the one that suits you best rather than wish the one you used had the features you want.

blah blah blah.....
-p

Posted on: 14 March 2011 by pcstockton

Originally Posted by adymcd:

What other options are you refering to?

My network has not changed, it all works well via Apple Remote and Chorus.

Your options would be to try a different UPNP Server. Or try a different iOS app with your current server. You could buy a Serve instead of the NDX (maybe a Naim server, and the nServe app are your ticket). Serve>Dac might sound better than an NDX afterall.... (

What are you using for a UPNP Server? I dont think you mentioned.

If it is simply an app issue, try PlugPlayer and see if it is any better. I doubt it looks as slick, but it may offer better performance. At then you would know what one alternative is.

-patrick

Posted on: 14 March 2011 by DavidDever

Originally Posted by Tog:

Anything would be both better and faster without all those line breaks–are you using a Psion to post with?

Posted on: 14 March 2011 by DavidDever

Originally Posted by adymcd:

Now for the bad. N-stream, this has to be one of the worst systems I have ever used, I don't know if I am doing something wrong or if this is just as good as it is. For reference I have changed nothing about the way my music is stored or delivered into my hifi.

It is very laggy between screen changes and I only have around 200 cds ripped at the moment. Tracks don't appear in the order they are on the cd. Artwork is hit and miss I often get the UPNP logo. If you browse by artist, select an artist it then dumps all of the cd's together. I still can't get the volume side of the program to work. There is no time remaining for the track.

Track order is reliant upon the manner in which the UPnP server parses the file tags, then presents the browse tree to the Player / Control Point.

Are you using Twonky or Asset on the RipNAS? Version?

Posted on: 14 March 2011 by adymcd

Originally Posted by DavidDever:

Originally Posted by adymcd:

I am using Asset.

Posted on: 14 March 2011 by DavidDever

On other forums, there are issues expressed with regard to other control points and Asset–just for your information. Sift through these and you may find that there are some problems that require resolution on the server side....

Posted on: 14 March 2011 by Richard Lord

I have been told that the Naim apps are a work in progress. As someone else said, they were late to the party and are playing catch up. They'll get there, I am sure of that. But this is new to everybody, well almost everybody. Personally, I love iTunes, if only for its sleek and polished interface and its many options on how to organise the music. But Apple have been at it rather longer than most and certainly longer than Naim.

I bet we will see significant improvements over the coming months/years. I certainly hope so, I am spending rather a lot of money on that assumption, anyway. So let's be patient.

Posted on: 14 March 2011 by Alamanka

I have not yet heard how good the NDX sounds.

But the $5,650 price tag certainly sounds like a lot of good money...

Posted on: 14 March 2011 by pcstockton

Originally Posted by Richard Lord:

Personally, I love iTunes, if only for its sleek and polished interface and its many options on how to organise the music.

What are those options???? iTunes might be the most limiting player out there.

Posted on: 15 March 2011 by Tog

Originally Posted by DavidDever:

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Originally Posted by Tog:

Anything would be both better and faster

without all those line breaks–are you using a Psion to post with?

Hi David - yes it would - try posting on this forum on an iPad - especially editing where ever time you make an alteration it adds line breaks that are well nigh impossible to remove - classy forum software.

I did have a Psion - brilliant until you had to use it.

Tog

Posted on: 15 March 2011 by likesmusic

ime Asset UPnP is flaky, frustrating and not so much half-finished as half-started. If it were judged by the same standards that folk on this forum (rightly) judge Naims stuff by, it would be torn to shreds.

Posted on: 15 March 2011 by adymcd

I really dont want this thread to detract from what Naim are doing. The NDX is IMHO a top class product, however, I really struggle to believe that the nstream app is ready to be released to the market.

Can somebody please tell me what UPNP I should be using if Asset is not the correct one

Posted on: 15 March 2011 by TJ

Hi All,
Firstly, the current version of n-Stream for is a stable release version. If you are having any particular setup problems with your system please post specifics or even better contact our support team who will be able to offer swift effective advice.

Regarding the original posters problem description n-Stream is completely at the mercy of the UPnP server. n-Stream pressents the album data as it is delivered by the server, so if the server chooses to reorder the tracks, lumps all CDs together when selecting an artist, shows no artwork or substitutes the UPnP logo instead of artwork then unfortunately that is what n-Stream will show the user.

As mentioned, Asset server has had a few ropey versions in the past, beware. I beleive the absolute latest PC release is supposed to be decent but I havn't tried it yet.
Cheers
Tom

Posted on: 15 March 2011 by David

Tom,

I have been using Asset for over a year without any problems, and found it very flexible. It is just a shame it cannot be installed on a Linux based NAS.

Out of interest what UPnP server are you using for R&D?

David

Posted on: 15 March 2011 by TJ

Hi David,
we try to use a range of third party servers for testing, Asset, Jamcast, eyeconnect, Twonky and various others.

I've used Twonky recently and although it doesn't have a particularly wizz bang front end it seems to do a decent job of serving up your media files to your streamer.

I do still favour our own servers in terms of speed, reliability of metadata and artwork and general robustness.

Posted on: 15 March 2011 by Tog

Hi Tom

If your servers run UPnP why are they faster and better able to deliver artwork than say MiniDLNA or Asset?

Tog

Posted on: 15 March 2011 by DavidDever

Originally Posted by adymcd:

At that level of system–and desiring the ease of use you are used to with the RipNAS–I'd use a UnitiServe with the built-in storage. Life's too short to mess around with configuration and troubleshooting, unless that IS your life.

Posted on: 15 March 2011 by Richard Lord

Originally Posted by pcstockton:

Originally Posted by Richard Lord:

Personally, I love iTunes, if only for its sleek and polished interface and its many options on how to organise the music.

What are those options???? iTunes might be the most limiting player out there.

Well for a start there is Genius. If you have never used it, then you don't know what you are missing. Of course, there are the many ways to search through your music. You can create a myriad of playlists, each can have different options on the menu bar, for example date created, artist, album, composer, etc, etc. By clicking on whichever, your listing is immediately re-arranged by that choice. Of course if you have little music, there is little need for all these options. But when you have many different versions of the same work, but by say, different conductors, or artists, it is nice to be able to find the exact piece of music you want. I trace old versions, well prior to the digital era. I sometimes have several copies of each. It is easy to trace and play the precise version I want to listen to.

Of course each of us has different requirements. Yours will be different to mine. Hope this explains what I mean.

Posted on: 15 March 2011 by pcstockton

Richard,

If you like that you would LOVE a real player like Foobar or JRMC.

Genius has nothing on Radio play or smart playlists (or Play Doctor in MC16, which can incorporate LastFM if you desire).

What you describe is found in EVERY media player known to man. Now that it is very easy to sync iOS devices on any other player, the only point of iTunes is the "Store".... and I suppose if you run Mac OS, there are few other viable options.

-Patrick

Posted on: 15 March 2011 by Tog

Sorry is there another OS? The Steve said that we should worship only one OS

Tog

Posted on: 15 March 2011 by Richard Lord

Originally Posted by pcstockton:

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Richard,

If you like that you would LOVE a real player like Foobar or JRMC.

Genius has nothing on Radio play or smart playlists (or Play Doctor in MC16, which can incorporate LastFM if you desire).

What you describe is found in EVERY media player known to man. Now that it is very easy to sync iOS devices on any other player, the only point of iTunes is the "Store".... and I suppose if you run Mac OS, there are few other viable options.

-Patrick

I know nothing about Foobar or JRMC, etc. But I am very interested in being able to control my music with an iPAD. For that reason and to keep it within the family, so to speak, I will be using N-Serve and or N-Stream. So far as I am aware, these two do not incorporate half of what is available in iTunes. Certainly not at the present time. I might play around with Foobar, etc in the future.

BTW, I use the iTunes store a lot. I have found the quality very acceptable, but especially for ancient stuff, 1950's era for example. I would, of course, choose a higher quality if it were available.

I accept that Apple have a walled garden approach, which some object to on principle. I have no trouble at their policies, nobody is forced to buy Apple.

Just checked with Google and Foobar is a Windows compliant player. I use a Mac. I did a search on JMRC and could only find: Joint Multinational Readiness Center. I doubt this is what you were referring to. But in any case, I am either going to use N-Serve/Stream or iTunes in one form or another.

No offence intended, Patrick.

Richard

Posted on: 15 March 2011 by pcstockton

No offense taken at all Richard.

If you are entrenched in the Mac camp, a full Naim approach with their Servers is a very smart idea. On the media player front, you have few options other than iTunes. And most are poor clones of the early iTunes builds.

And I dont disagree with Apple's "walled garden" approach out of principle. I see ZERO difference between a company like Apple and Microsoft regarding principles, approach or market dominance (monopoly). I object on purely functional grounds. If they supported FLAC playback and could handle large (relative) libraries, I may have never thought of using anything else. (i probably moved from MP3s and iTunes to FLACs and Foobar in 2005-6)

I would never be able to use iTunes after using media players with features like:
- Running in "Full screen" (like Front Row, but with standard control)
- Integrated, synced lyrics.
- Bios from LastFM or Wikipedia
- Background artist pics and slideshows
- Database style tag handling
- Lightning quick performance with HUGE libraries
- Integrated UPNP servers with multi-zone support
- FULLY customizable configurations/interface
- Memory Playback
- Plenty of options for control points with browsers, iOS devices, Android etc...
- Compatible with every codec imaginable
- "Proper" ripping engines (secure mode, log file, gap detection, pre-gap info etc)
- Constant development and STELLAR support (you can email the developers of J River and get a response in hours, or go to the Forum and get one in minutes)
- The ability to test Beta versions and help develop new features.
- "Theater Mode" in J River. It can replace Explorer as your shell/interface for a super sexy full-screen mode everyone will drool over.
- A decided lack of something being sold to me.
- Better and easier syncing of iOS devices.

and on and on.

If you ever want FULL control over your music, how it is presented and displayed, you owe it to yourself to install Windows on your Mac and try a few of the options out there. You will shit yourself.

-Patrick