NDX review + N-steam rant!
Posted by: adymcd on 14 March 2011
My system comprises of the following 252/SC2/250.2/DAC/XPS2. I have a Ripnas attached to the network, all hardwired, which stores my music as flac. I have done the whole debate on which file storage format works and for me personally I couldn't tell any difference between the lossless formats on offer. For me personally I chose the Ripnas for the ease of use in the end.
Previous streamimg solutions are via SB touch, Lavry, Majik DS, Akurate DS MK1 and mac/hiface.
I don't have 'professional' ears by any means and so won't be using any of the technical lingo that quite often gets spoken about in these situations.
Lets start with the good first, the NDX is a very good bit of kit, I have had it now for about two weeks and in true fashion it just seems to keep improving. For ease I have taken the digital out and connected it straight into the dac, basically removing my mac/hiface. Initially I questioned my logic of buying the unit blind without a demo as there were no real differences that stood out. Having listened no to it for two weeks all I can say is wow! There is a level of detail present that I have never heard before I am listening to Alison Krauss and Holy Cole at the moment and for the first time in my life I can shut my eyes and actually believe that she is singing right there in front of me. The sound stage is also lot bigger than before and more easy for me to pick out whilst the areas in between seem quieter if that makes sense. On other things such as the Black Eyed Peas the low end resolution and control is far more than before. The base is tighter and more controlled yet the benefits of before remain. It is like have a new music collection not in a dramatic way but in a good way.
For me it has taken everything I liked about the NDAC and improved it. My original thought was to sell the NDAC and use the XPS2 on the NDX, now I will need a good listen to see if that is the case
Now for the bad. N-stream, this has to be one of the worst systems I have ever used, I don't know if I am doing something wrong or if this is just as good as it is. For reference I have changed nothing about the way my music is stored or delivered into my hifi.
It is very laggy between screen changes and I only have around 200 cds ripped at the moment. Tracks don't appear in the order they are on the cd. Artwork is hit and miss I often get the UPNP logo. If you browse by artist, select an artist it then dumps all of the cd's together. I still can't get the volume side of the program to work. There is no time remaining for the track.
In a nutshell it is in my opinion not great and that is being kind how a company such as Naim feels this is an acceptable solution in a hifi system costing £17k+ is beyond me. Why is it such as Chorus is developed and maintained by one guy in his back room and it works but this misses the mark by a mile.
Please accept these are only my opinions, over the next week or so I will try the NDX bare and with the XPS2 attached to it and update the thread. To end on a positive WELL DONE Naim the NDX is truly outstanding for me.
Posted on: 15 March 2011 by likesmusic
How do you configure J River for guaranteed bit-perfect output patrick?
And what's the best way of controlling it from an iPhone?
Posted on: 15 March 2011 by pcstockton
OK, I'll take the bait.
In J River, ASIO out with my Juli@ sound card is bit-transparent or perfect or whatever. I would assume WASAPI and KS to do simliar things.
Or with J River if you send out the stream via UPNP to a Uniti, I think you would be bit-perfect there as well.
The best way of controlling J River with an iPhone is via their own internally developed "Webremote" (free) or with PlugPlayer ($6??). I use PlugPlayer.
Either way you can browse libraries, create/edit playlists, volume control etc.....
-patrick
Posted on: 15 March 2011 by Richard Lord
Patrick, you are obviously a clued up smart computer nerd (I mean that in the nicest way). I am an old fogie.
I have a choice, take a computer course, read all the mags, join lots of techie forums, quiz people like yourself, etc, or I can choose a well respected Company like Naim, to trust with my requirements. I have decided to do just that.
I am perfectly happy with whatever constraints there may be with the likes of iTunes. But in any case I suspect I will be using the N-Serve/Stream apps via a forthcoming purchase of an Ipad2. I rarely take advantage of all the options that are available, even when free. I prefer to keep within the walled garden, so to speak. Actually, it looks as if I am transferring from the Apple garden to Naim's own. As long as the music plays what I choose, I am easily pleased. True, I would love Genius to be available on N-Serve.Stream, as I would a few other options.
Remember, there are a lot of people out there just like me. People who have very little technical knowledge, but who demand good music. Many at this time are preferring to avoid streaming altogether because of the problems. It is a maturing technology, but still has a long way to go.
Posted on: 15 March 2011 by likesmusic
Cheers patrick - I found J River a bit of an overdose, Plugplayer is appalling and some free remote app I got from wintense was useless, but I'll try the J River remote app and see. I have to say there still seems to be an element of hope as to whether you get a bit-perfect output, and some fiddling to do, rather than cast iron certainty. Plus the trial version started molesting my FLACs and added artwork without asking me which I thought was a bit pushy.
Posted on: 15 March 2011 by pcstockton
Likes,
That "J River App" is not made in-house. And I dont think you will like it, as PlugPlayer is better. You cant browse the library as you do in Remote and PP. It only supports "pages" (weak) and I dont recall if it has search facility. I think it is more for playlists.
Regarding bit perfection, ASIO/KS/WASAPI are a guarantee that the OS doesn't mess with the bits. A bit-perfect sound card is easy to obtain. I recommend any number of the card that a)support 24/192, and also b) have auto sample rate switching (A MUST). There is nothing more annoying than stopping payback and having to switch settings to go between redbook and hires.
Using one of these output options in J River is cake.
Why is PP appalling? I cant find any faults with it. It is fast and stable. It allows full search, scrolling through artist and albums with "jump letters" and thumbs a la Remote App. You can create and edit playlists easily. You can stream directly to your iOS device (good for docking your iPhone into your 2nd system Naim DAC). You can use it to stream your entire library to your iPhone in the car or office. The early versions were slow and buggy (sound familiar?), but whatever they are doing now is working perfectly for me on both iPhone and iPad.
Lastly, with ANY media player (iTunes included), it is prudent to go through the basic settings and ensure the player wont re-write tags, "manage" your files, or download art, (which J River wont the way you stated. If you tell it to, then it saves art in a iTunes style third location), turn off eq's/DSPs, turn on memory play etc....
-Patrick
Posted on: 15 March 2011 by pcstockton
Originally Posted by Richard Lord:
Patrick, you are obviously a clued up smart computer nerd (I mean that in the nicest way). I am an old fogie.
I have a choice, take a computer course, read all the mags, join lots of techie forums, quiz people like yourself, etc, or I can choose a well respected Company like Naim, to trust with my requirements. I have decided to do just that.
I agree wholeheartedly.... Hence my comment above that an all Naim solution is ideal for you, and many others. I would also take the all-Naim solution all the back to the UPNP renderer (Qute/NDX), behind that though I will use a kickass media player to serve up the files.
Regardless of the cost of a Serve, I really like the interfaces and flexibility my media players offer. If I could control the Serve with Foobar or JRMC I would be into it. But there is no need. (making the HUGE unsubstantiated assumption that a Serve would not bring better sound quality than a Qute).
However I can continue to use my current and future players, AND get the benefit of a Naim digital output to my DAC, with the Qute.
And there is no class nor forum to learn about "distributed audio"... You learn simply by doing, as you are now. You already know a ton my friend.
-Patrick
Posted on: 15 March 2011 by pcstockton
Originally Posted by Richard Lord:
Many at this time are preferring to avoid streaming altogether because of the problems. It is a maturing technology, but still has a long way to go.
I am right there as well. I am a non-streamer without a NAS. Maybe my house isn't big enough.
I am sure something like a Qute will find its way into my world at some point. Then i will have to wade my way through all of the network whatnot with ethernet switches and points, NAS units, and routers.
See??? You already know much more than me. I only know a bit about media players because over the last 6-7 years it was basically the only way to listen to ripped CDs. And I have tried them all.
-Patrick
Posted on: 15 March 2011 by Guido Fawkes
Originally Posted by Tog:
Sorry is there another OS? The Steve said that we should worship only one OS
Tog
Posted on: 15 March 2011 by pcstockton
Originally Posted by Guido Fawkes:
The UnitiServe can avoid UPnP, which I think is very good news.
I hadnt thought of that.... I assume you mean files on the Serve, with digital output to the DAC. But there is no way I am re-ripping all of my cds.
Posted on: 15 March 2011 by Richard Lord
Originally Posted by pcstockton:
I am sure something like a Qute will find its way into my world at some point. Then i will have to wade my way through all of the network whatnot with ethernet switches and points, NAS units, and routers.
See??? You already know much more than me. I only know a bit about media players because over the last 6-7 years it was basically the only way to listen to ripped CDs. And I have tried them all.
-Patrick
Flattery will certainly earn you Brownie points, Patrick. But in reality I just do as I am told regarding streaming. Ian (of UHES) has set up my NAS to send him an Email if it is troubled. Shades of HAL in the movie 2001, A Space Odyssey, where he does diagnostics on himself. Where is it going to end?
Richard
Posted on: 16 March 2011 by likesmusic
patrick - i think the Serve will find all the files on your network, so you shouldn't need to re-rip any.
And on the J River thing - have you looked at Songbook as a way of remote controlling MediaCenter on your iPhone? Seems to me (and I only have limited experience for I only have limited patience) it does a better job on the whole than Plugplayer.
Posted on: 16 March 2011 by lhau
Richard,
I think you "only" need to know 2 things.
1. Get a gigabit switch and make sure both the nas and the ndx/uniti/qute. You might as well use a fast switch (current king of speed seems to be ASus). This way you have a clear path.
2. Get a synology nas, might as well get a higher end model with 2-4 bays. They are fast and easy. Or else, just use a unitiserve or something. Just make sure they are on the same switch.
If you have done 1&2, you are guaranteed to have trouble free playback.
I recommend the synology nas because it has very good ease to use. Just tick a box to enable upnp(aka DLNA), click another to enable iTunes server. Click a few boxes more to enable transcode your flac to wav at play time so your player gets wav performance even from flacs.
How to add to your music collection? Just drop the files into a folder called "music". It will be indexed if the tags are there, or you can browse by folder. Want cover art? Just drop the image into the same folder with the name "cover.jpg".
After that you can just use your nstream to find your songs.
Can it be simpler then that? Not much I guess.
Elegant, simple, bit perfect.
Posted on: 16 March 2011 by Tog
Hmm sounds just like Vortexbox ...
Tog
Posted on: 16 March 2011 by lhau
I don't know vortex box.
I guess they are more or less the same thing.
I choose synology because I have also photos and time machine and netbackup.
Also they have very very good service. They have helped me fix my old nas twice, free of postage and charges even after warranty in good faith.
Posted on: 16 March 2011 by pcstockton
Originally Posted by likesmusic:
patrick - i think the Serve will find all the files on your network, so you shouldn't need to re-rip any.
And on the J River thing - have you looked at Songbook as a way of remote controlling MediaCenter on your iPhone? Seems to me (and I only have limited experience for I only have limited patience) it does a better job on the whole than Plugplayer.
Likes,
My comment above was referring to Guido's post regarding using the Serve/DAC without UPNP.
And Songook is what I was referring to. I bought it and used it once then deleted it. If I cant browse the library by scrolling lists of artists then albums, I dont want it.
It is a fancier looking clone of JMRC's integrated "WebRemote".
Once again, what is your problem with PlugPlayer, you have not answered that question. It functions almost identically to Remote. I haven't heard many bad things about Remote.
-Patrick
Posted on: 16 March 2011 by pcstockton
Originally Posted by Richard Lord:
But in reality I just do as I am told regarding streaming.
As we all are Richard. We are all new at this.
it all comes down to what we already own hardware-wise, what we are comfortable with, and overall budgets.
Posted on: 16 March 2011 by Tog
The main difference between Plugplayer and Remote is in terms of user feedback in use - very often you can select from a listing and there is no visible response in terms of colour change or button release - Apple are very good at producing software that just feels right.
Tog
Posted on: 17 March 2011 by adymcd
OK
I have just tried Songbook last night, the APP itself is a cost of £29.99 but the functionality seems a lot better.
I am struggling with the setup though as both nstream and songbook now only play the first 2 seconds of a track!
Anybody any ideas?
Posted on: 17 March 2011 by Tog
Don't have both running at the same time - stick with n-stream - which UPnP Server are you using?
Tog
Posted on: 17 March 2011 by Richard Lord
Originally Posted by lhau:
Richard, I think you "only" need to know 2 things. 1. Get a gigabit switch and make sure both the nas and the ndx/uniti/qute. You might as well use a fast switch (current king of speed seems to be ASus). This way you have a clear path. 2. Get a synology nas, might as well get a higher end model with 2-4 bays. They are fast and easy. Or else, just use a unitiserve or something. Just make sure they are on the same switch. If you have done 1&2, you are guaranteed to have trouble free playback. I recommend the synology nas because it has very good ease to use. Just tick a box to enable upnp(aka DLNA), click another to enable iTunes server. Click a few boxes more to enable transcode your flac to wav at play time so your player gets wav performance even from flacs. How to add to your music collection? Just drop the files into a folder called "music". It will be indexed if the tags are there, or you can browse by folder. Want cover art? Just drop the image into the same folder with the name "cover.jpg". After that you can just use your nstream to find your songs. Can it be simpler then that? Not much I guess. Elegant, simple, bit perfect.
Thank you, Ihau. I will take your and other people's advice. Having talked at length with Ian and Norman (of UHES) yesterday, I am intending to buy a more sophisticated 4 bay NAS which will be situated in a downstairs cupboard for isolation. A dedicated Cat5E cable to a gigabit switch. The existing 2 bay NAS will be kept in a different location as a silent backup.
I am awaiting delivery of the UnityServe SSD. The Fraim is installed, so things are slowly coming together. I will post more as the installation progresses.
I am really grateful to all who have contributed to helping me. Thank you.
Richard
