Naim's servers and streamers: why no modular approach ?

Posted by: nbpf on 05 July 2014

I am relatively new to Naim but I have been following this forum for a while and I have recently bought a SN2 and a second hand DAC. I am quite happy with my system but there is a question which is bugging me and that I'd like to address / answer / debate.

 

Naim has been developing both integrated products (the Uniti range) and single components which can be combined to build modular systems: one can buy a pure digital to analog converter (DAC), a pure integrated amplifier (SN2), a pure preamp (152 XS) and so on. There are product lines (XS, 500, Classic) that suggest meaningful combitations of these components and support building modular systems which are well balanced and devoid of redundancies.

 

But when it comes to servers (UnitiServe, HDX) and streamers (NDS, NDX, ND5XS), Naim does not support a modular approach. Separation of concerns is not an option anymore: you cannot, for instance, buy a pure Naim hard disk player, connect it to a dac and go.

 

This lack of modularity necessarily leads to bloated systems and redundancies. Why is it so? Why doesn't Naim offer streamers which are just streamers and not streamers and dacs? Why doesn't Naim offer servers which are just servers and not servers and CD players and ripping stations ?

 

I have been looking carefully at Naim's products and I have the impression that there is a dichotomy between the line of traditional audio devices and that of servers and streamers: the first one is open, understandable, modular. The second one is, to say the least, confusing.

 

I have been considering different options for building my system but I have to say that I could not find a sufficient reason to buy a Naim server or a streamer. I possibly would have bought a pure streamer (say a ND5XS without a dac) and I certainly would have bought a Naim dedicated device that just plays files from a SSD drive. And considering the number of posts in this forum concerned with the usage of Mac Minis or PCs  as audio servers it appears that I am not alone.

 

So the question is: Naim offers excellent modular traditional products. Why doesn't Naim follow a similar approach when it comes to servers and streamers ? Why four CD players but not a single pure hard disk player ?  

 

 

 

 

 

 

Posted on: 05 July 2014 by nbpf

Sorry, I guess I should have learnt how to embed a picture before posting.

Posted on: 05 July 2014 by nbpf
Originally Posted by Huge:
Originally Posted by nbpf:
Originally Posted by Foxman50:

Maybe those who have say an nDAC could say if it sounds the same supplied from various sources.

It does not. I have tested the nDAC with 1) the electrical SPDIF output of my fit-PC3, 2) the electrical SPDIF output of a M2Tech hiFace Two, 3) the electrical and optical SPDIF outputs of a M2Tech hiFace Evo. Even on my modest system and to my bad eard the differences were significant.

Each of the sources you have listed is supplying a real-time feed to the DAC (in those cases via S/PDIF).  This class of digital feed is almost always compromised by jitter (as well as RFI) so yes, the sound will vary.

 

Integrating the IP streamer and DAC into one box allows buffering the incoming data, and allows it to be synchronously clocked out of the buffer and into the DAC, minimising jitter.  A better result is usually obtained by this route, unless the DAC is in a class (and price) well above that of the streamer.

I agree. But still Naim sells a pure dac (DAC or nDAC) and some use it togetehr with a streamer thus making the onboard dac of the streamer effectively redundant. I would expect a company selling a pure dac to also offer dacless transports.

Posted on: 05 July 2014 by hungryhalibut

An interesting thread. Today I received three new CDs from the US. Once popped into the UnitiServe, they are ripped and organised, and a few minutes later available to play. Backup to a NAS is all automated. So whether it's a pure server, or something else entirely, is really immaterial, as it works like a dream and sounds great, which is really what counts. No need to turn on a PC, Mac or whatever.

Posted on: 05 July 2014 by nbpf
Originally Posted by Jude2012:
in response to the OP, a product like the Aurilac Aries would not go a miss and would Naim hunters and existing Naimees more options :-)

Very interesting, thanks ! I guess we will witness a number of new interesting devices as streaming and multi-room music replay become more and more popular. This will hopefully promote open standards.

 

But as I said, I am not very interested in streaming. What I would like to see is a Naim box with a modern multicore low power hardware, high quality build standard, high quality optical and electrical SPDIF outputs and certification for open OSs. 

 

Building such a box would almost be a no-brainer for a company like Naim. It would provide a simple, straightforward entry point to the Naim world and meet the needs of those users that, in absence of Naim alternatives, have resorted to Vortexboxes, Mac Minis, fanless PCs and the likes. 

Posted on: 05 July 2014 by Jude2012
Originally Posted by nbpf:
Originally Posted by Jude2012:
in response to the OP, a product like the Aurilac Aries would not go a miss and would Naim hunters and existing Naimees more options :-)

Very interesting, thanks ! I guess we will witness a number of new interesting devices as streaming and multi-room music replay become more and more popular. This will hopefully promote open standards.

 

But as I said, I am not very interested in streaming. What I would like to see is a Naim box with a modern multicore low power hardware, high quality build standard, high quality optical and electrical SPDIF outputs and certification for open OSs. 

 

Building such a box would almost be a no-brainer for a company like Naim. It would provide a simple, straightforward entry point to the Naim world and meet the needs of those users that, in absence of Naim alternatives, have resorted to Vortexboxes, Mac Minis, fanless PCs and the likes. 

 

+1 (with USB, too)

 

 

 

Posted on: 05 July 2014 by nbpf
Originally Posted by Hungryhalibut:

An interesting thread. Today I received three new CDs from the US. Once popped into the UnitiServe, they are ripped and organised, and a few minutes later available to play. Backup to a NAS is all automated. So whether it's a pure server, or something else entirely, is really immaterial, as it works like a dream and sounds great, which is really what counts. No need to turn on a PC, Mac or whatever.

HH, I am glad the UnitiServe works for you and, as I said, I believe it is a great product. I am also very happy with my system, as I said: yesterday I discovered two new internet radio stations and bought a new album. I was in my office, about 30 miles away from home. I ssh'ed my audio server and entered the new stations on my playlists. I downloaded the new album to my laptop and rsync'ed to the server. In a few seconds my wife at home was able to listen to the new stations and to the music I bought. I could not have done that on a UnitiServe. Different users, different needs. No problems.

Posted on: 05 July 2014 by nbpf
Originally Posted by Jude2012:
Originally Posted by nbpf:
Originally Posted by Jude2012:
in response to the OP, a product like the Aurilac Aries would not go a miss and would Naim hunters and existing Naimees more options :-)

Very interesting, thanks ! I guess we will witness a number of new interesting devices as streaming and multi-room music replay become more and more popular. This will hopefully promote open standards.

 

But as I said, I am not very interested in streaming. What I would like to see is a Naim box with a modern multicore low power hardware, high quality build standard, high quality optical and electrical SPDIF outputs and certification for open OSs. 

 

Building such a box would almost be a no-brainer for a company like Naim. It would provide a simple, straightforward entry point to the Naim world and meet the needs of those users that, in absence of Naim alternatives, have resorted to Vortexboxes, Mac Minis, fanless PCs and the likes. 

 

+1 (with USB, too)

Right, with USB of course. And fanless. A barebone version would also be nice so we can fit our own SSD drives. Please Naim, please ...

Posted on: 05 July 2014 by Jude2012
Originally Posted by nbpf:
Originally Posted by Jude2012:
Originally Posted by nbpf:
Originally Posted by Jude2012:
in response to the OP, a product like the Aurilac Aries would not go a miss and would Naim hunters and existing Naimees more options :-)

Very interesting, thanks ! I guess we will witness a number of new interesting devices as streaming and multi-room music replay become more and more popular. This will hopefully promote open standards.

 

But as I said, I am not very interested in streaming. What I would like to see is a Naim box with a modern multicore low power hardware, high quality build standard, high quality optical and electrical SPDIF outputs and certification for open OSs. 

 

Building such a box would almost be a no-brainer for a company like Naim. It would provide a simple, straightforward entry point to the Naim world and meet the needs of those users that, in absence of Naim alternatives, have resorted to Vortexboxes, Mac Minis, fanless PCs and the likes. 

 

+1 (with USB, too)

Right, with USB of course. And fanless. A barebone version would also be nice so we can fit our own SSD drives. Please Naim, please ...

wishing is the easy part... :-)

 

 

Posted on: 05 July 2014 by nbpf
Originally Posted by Jude2012:
Isolating the Mac Mini or any device (including the Unitiserve's SMPSU) is by using a linear PSU or at least a separate mains circuit.

My linear power supply for the fit-PC3 is waiting at the customs ... , I'll pick it up next week.

Originally Posted by Jude2012:

With respect to RFI from wifi cards or IR sensors, in the case of the Mac Mini it is possible to turn if off from simple system configuration (I.e. Within MAC OS itself).  I have no experience with the Unitiserve , however, I am sure it would be possible. The Mac Mini's low optical SPDIF jitter is well documented of this forum.

Yes, I believe the high quality optical SPDIF is an advantage of the Mac Mini versus other solutions. My fit-PC3 works fine and looks nice but an external USB-SPDIF converter has improved the sound quality perceivably. Also, the internal sound card of the fit-PC3 was not working work on 24bit / 88.2kHz files (strangely enough it worked fine on 24bit / 192kHz).

 

I am sure one can optimize the UnitiServe as well. It should also be possible to install an open OS on it but, of course, we shall not discuss this option here. The problem is, I have found very little documentation on the UnitiServe. I guess it runs some stripped down version of windows but I have not been able to find detailed information. This is for me unacceptable. I might be completely wrong but, when I tried to gather some information on the UnitiServe, I came to the conclusion that it was a device which was supposed to be used "as it is". I also had the impression (but again, I never used a Serve) that adding / removing / retagging files on internal HD was cumbersome.

Posted on: 05 July 2014 by Jude2012
Originally Posted by nbpf:
Originally Posted by Jude2012:
Isolating the Mac Mini or any device (including the Unitiserve's SMPSU) is by using a linear PSU or at least a separate mains circuit.

My linear power supply for the fit-PC3 is waiting at the customs ... , I'll pick it up next week.

Originally Posted by Jude2012:

With respect to RFI from wifi cards or IR sensors, in the case of the Mac Mini it is possible to turn if off from simple system configuration (I.e. Within MAC OS itself).  I have no experience with the Unitiserve , however, I am sure it would be possible. The Mac Mini's low optical SPDIF jitter is well documented of this forum.

Yes, I believe the high quality optical SPDIF is an advantage of the Mac Mini versus other solutions. My fit-PC3 works fine and looks nice but an external USB-SPDIF converter has improved the sound quality perceivably. Also, the internal sound card of the fit-PC3 was not working work on 24bit / 88.2kHz files (strangely enough it worked fine on 24bit / 192kHz).

 

I am sure one can optimize the UnitiServe as well. It should also be possible to install an open OS on it but, of course, we shall not discuss this option here. The problem is, I have found very little documentation on the UnitiServe. I guess it runs some stripped down version of windows but I have not been able to find detailed information. This is for me unacceptable. I might be completely wrong but, when I tried to gather some information on the UnitiServe, I came to the conclusion that it was a device which was supposed to be used "as it is". I also had the impression (but again, I never used a Serve) that adding / removing / retagging files on internal HD was cumbersome.

 

I guess the US was designed to be a turn key solution, so not meant to be taken apart.  Although It is possible to add a linear PSU as some such as @Hungryhalibut have done.  The Mini is not as easy as a PC to take apart but there is an industry out there for optimising it (or DIY if preferred).  

 

On a PC, some have posted that the latest server version of Windows works well, which of course can be heavily paired down to the minimum.  Also, some folks are getting good results from  Raspberry Pi.

 

In my system the V1 has galvanic isolation and does not use the 5V power from the USB and is far enough away from the Mini for me to be concerned about RFI.  

 

A benefit of using a PC, Mac or Linux device is that you choose the control and playback software rather than relying on Naim alone (downside - you have to like tinkering).

 

 

J

 

Posted on: 05 July 2014 by Huge
Originally Posted by Jude2012:
Originally Posted by nbpf:
Originally Posted by Jude2012:
in response to the OP, a product like the Aurilac Aries would not go a miss and would Naim hunters and existing Naimees more options :-)

Very interesting, thanks ! I guess we will witness a number of new interesting devices as streaming and multi-room music replay become more and more popular. This will hopefully promote open standards.

 

But as I said, I am not very interested in streaming. What I would like to see is a Naim box with a modern multicore low power hardware, high quality build standard, high quality optical and electrical SPDIF outputs and certification for open OSs. 

 

Building such a box would almost be a no-brainer for a company like Naim. It would provide a simple, straightforward entry point to the Naim world and meet the needs of those users that, in absence of Naim alternatives, have resorted to Vortexboxes, Mac Minis, fanless PCs and the likes. 

 

+1 (with USB, too)

 

 

 

So in essence what you want is for Naim to produce a Naim branded clone of a Mac-mini (a Nac-nini perhaps) and start competing with Apple?

Posted on: 05 July 2014 by Jude2012
Originally Posted by Huge:
Originally Posted by Jude2012:
Originally Posted by nbpf:
Originally Posted by Jude2012:
in response to the OP, a product like the Aurilac Aries would not go a miss and would Naim hunters and existing Naimees more options :-)

Very interesting, thanks ! I guess we will witness a number of new interesting devices as streaming and multi-room music replay become more and more popular. This will hopefully promote open standards.

 

But as I said, I am not very interested in streaming. What I would like to see is a Naim box with a modern multicore low power hardware, high quality build standard, high quality optical and electrical SPDIF outputs and certification for open OSs. 

 

Building such a box would almost be a no-brainer for a company like Naim. It would provide a simple, straightforward entry point to the Naim world and meet the needs of those users that, in absence of Naim alternatives, have resorted to Vortexboxes, Mac Minis, fanless PCs and the likes. 

 

+1 (with USB, too)

 

 

 

So in essence what you want is for Naim to produce a Naim branded clone of a Mac-mini (a Nac-nini perhaps) and start competing with Apple?

yes, apart from the fact that I don't want Naim to make word processing, film/photo editing software and games.  Is that okay?

Posted on: 05 July 2014 by nbpf
Originally Posted by Huge:
Originally Posted by Jude2012:
Originally Posted by nbpf:
Originally Posted by Jude2012:
in response to the OP, a product like the Aurilac Aries would not go a miss and would Naim hunters and existing Naimees more options :-)

Very interesting, thanks ! I guess we will witness a number of new interesting devices as streaming and multi-room music replay become more and more popular. This will hopefully promote open standards.

 

But as I said, I am not very interested in streaming. What I would like to see is a Naim box with a modern multicore low power hardware, high quality build standard, high quality optical and electrical SPDIF outputs and certification for open OSs. 

 

Building such a box would almost be a no-brainer for a company like Naim. It would provide a simple, straightforward entry point to the Naim world and meet the needs of those users that, in absence of Naim alternatives, have resorted to Vortexboxes, Mac Minis, fanless PCs and the likes. 

 

+1 (with USB, too)

 

 

 

So in essence what you want is for Naim to produce a Naim branded clone of a Mac-mini (a Nac-nini perhaps) and start competing with Apple?

Not exactly. The Mac Mini (or, for that, the fit-PC microservers) are excellent devices but they are not dedicated audio servers or clients. Vortexbox appliances are a small step in the right direction. C.A.P.S. servers possibly a significant one.

 

But I believe that Naim could and should do better. By carefully selecting multicore low power low noise CPUs, SSD internal drives, noise-free power sources, high-quality audio cards, etc. Naim could offer a small range of dedicated, high quality audio servers / cleints that optimally match Naim's downstream devices. They could start with a minimal system and add user-selectable options and configurations for specific tasks: playing, streaming, etc. There would be no competition with Apple since most people would not pay extra money to run non audio applications on a dedicated audio computer. And, as I said, it would provide a simple entry point to Naim systems.

 

I also would like to point out that what I consider to be a weakness in Naim's range of options is by no means a Naim specific problem. Other companies do not appear to be doing better. But I believe that Naim has the capability and the responsability of doing better and that a company can make money without failing to meet open source standards and product line transparency.

Posted on: 05 July 2014 by nbpf
Originally Posted by nbpf:
Sorry, I guess I should have learnt how to embed a picture before posting.

For completeness here a picture of the fit-PC3 near the DAC. Best, nbpf

Posted on: 05 July 2014 by Tog

Current Mac Mini is a surprisingly low jitter device and equipped with Audirvana + with USB into a good dac you have all you might need simply add Apple's free and criminally under-appreciated control point - remote.

 

Tog

Posted on: 05 July 2014 by nbpf
Originally Posted by Tog:

Current Mac Mini is a surprisingly low jitter device and equipped with Audirvana + with USB into a good dac you have all you might need simply add Apple's free and criminally under-appreciated control point - remote.

 

Tog

Right, but slightly OT. Best, nbpf

Posted on: 05 July 2014 by Claus-Thoegersen

The users  that have these demands do not want a Naim product! first the price would be too high, and Naim would not be able to give support to the product, since everything should be done by the hifi maker  at home, and every user would want his own solution, so it makes a lot of sense for Naim not to go there.

Claus

Posted on: 05 July 2014 by nbpf
Originally Posted by Claus-Thoegersen:

The users  that have these demands do not want a Naim product! first the price would be too high, and Naim would not be able to give support to the product, since everything should be done by the hifi maker  at home, and every user would want his own solution, so it makes a lot of sense for Naim not to go there.

Claus

Well, I am a Naim user, do have these demands and do want a Naim product ! Price is not the main issue, I believe. A Mac Mini or PC costs about 500 EUR. Let Naim sell a barebone dedicated audio server for two or three times that price. This would certainly not bring significant revenues. But it would provide a meaningful entry point to Naim systems at a reasonable price. A genuine commitment to quality implies certain responsabilities. These imply, in turn, transparent roadmaps, open systems and straightforward, understandable products. As I said, Naim is not, in this respect, worse than other companies. It's just that it is not better.

Posted on: 05 July 2014 by Brian Dodson
Nbpf,

I might have missed it but what server software are you using on the fitpc?

Bmdduck
Posted on: 05 July 2014 by nbpf
Originally Posted by Brian Dodson:
Nbpf,

I might have missed it but what server software are you using on the fitpc?

Bmdduck

Bmdduck, on the fit-PC3 I run MPD (music player deamon) under Debian stable. Clients are GMPC and ncmpcpp (on my laptop) and MPoD (on iPhone and iPad). I have tested Asset and Minim on the fit-PC3 but I'm not running them at the moment (I am not streaming). Best, nbpf  

Posted on: 05 July 2014 by nbpf
Originally Posted by Dustysox:

Hello all,

 

Great posts and debate. 

 

I am one of the guilty party using a Mac Mini with all my music on and Asset, which is solid as a rock....and just works. Not sure adding Unitiserve will bring much to the party. I would be interested in thoughts on this. 

I think a UnitiServe would not bring you much. But it would be interesting to know who buys UnitiServes and why. I guess many do so because of the ripping functionalities. Which is fine, I guess.

Posted on: 05 July 2014 by Huge
Originally Posted by nbpf:
Originally Posted by Claus-Thoegersen:

The users  that have these demands do not want a Naim product! first the price would be too high, and Naim would not be able to give support to the product, since everything should be done by the hifi maker  at home, and every user would want his own solution, so it makes a lot of sense for Naim not to go there.

Claus

...Price is not the main issue, I believe. A Mac Mini or PC costs about 500 EUR. Let Naim sell a barebone dedicated audio server for two or three times that price. This would certainly not bring significant revenues. But it would provide a meaningful entry point to Naim systems at a reasonable price. ...

Naim already have an entry point; it's called 'UnitiQute 2' - Add a USB memory stick and off you go.

 

In terms of entry level

 

Option 1

Audiophile Naim PC £1,500 - £2,000

Naim DAC-V1 £1,200

Nait 5si £950

Total > £2650

 

Option 2

Naim UnityQute 2 £1,300

64Mb Memory Stick £80

Total £1380

 

So which is entry level?

 

Posted on: 05 July 2014 by nbpf
Originally Posted by Huge:
Originally Posted by nbpf:
Originally Posted by Claus-Thoegersen:

The users  that have these demands do not want a Naim product! first the price would be too high, and Naim would not be able to give support to the product, since everything should be done by the hifi maker  at home, and every user would want his own solution, so it makes a lot of sense for Naim not to go there.

Claus

...Price is not the main issue, I believe. A Mac Mini or PC costs about 500 EUR. Let Naim sell a barebone dedicated audio server for two or three times that price. This would certainly not bring significant revenues. But it would provide a meaningful entry point to Naim systems at a reasonable price. ...

Naim already have an entry point; it's called 'UnitiQute 2' - Add a USB memory stick and off you go.

 

In terms of entry level

 

Option 1

Audiophile Naim PC £1,500 - £2,000

Naim DAC-V1 £1,200

Nait 5si £950

Total > £2650

 

Option 2

Naim UnityQute 2 £1,300

64Mb Memory Stick £80

Total £1380

 

So which is entry level?

 

Huge, the UnitiQute is, as the "naim" says, an integrated device. It is a UPnP client, a dac, a tuner and an amplifier. Maybe even more. It's a great device but it is neither a pure hard disk player nor a pure streamer. It needs a player or a UPnP server ! I wrote about entry points, not entry prices. What I understand under a simple, straightforward entry point is a device with a modern multicore low power cpu, high quality build standard, high quality optical and electrical SPDIF outputs, USB ports, SSD, fanless and certification for open OSs. I guess I already wrote this, haven't I ?

Posted on: 06 July 2014 by Jude2012
@npbf, it's good to see a relevant response yo your query rather than some of the posts that steer towards the 'streaming over Ethernet is best' mantle posts.

J :-)
Posted on: 06 July 2014 by dave4jazz

I can't say whether “streaming over ethernet is best” but it is certainly very convenient if you don't want, or have, a computer in the same room as your hi-fi system.

 

Regarding the OP's question a DACless streaming device would be nice; with an android app option of course. One decent DAC should be enough in any system.

 

Dave