Naim Rips -vs- Ruby Ripper Alias WAV -vs Flac!

Posted by: Mr Underhill on 17 March 2011

In auditioning the UnitiServe & NS01 I have been struck by how much better the Naim rips were than those made using my standard ripping technique, RubyRipper on Ubuntu.

Naim rips to WAV, so was the difference due to the way Naim handles a flac file?

I used flac to decompress three of my 'flacced' albums:

Praise & Blame - Tom Jones;
The Rock Soundtrack; and
Diva - Annie Lennox.

I reripped these CDs using the UnitiServe.

In all cases playing back via US/NS01 -> nDac -> EAR864/534 -> Living Audio Auditorium II.

The WAV was easily picked for P&B and Diva. A slight edge on vocals was apparent.

Naim WAV -vs- Decompressed flac. No difference that I would be able to pick blind.

BUT:

I think this is well worth mentioning. The Naim ripping process it amazingly fast and easy. Usability is a very nice quality.

M

Posted on: 28 March 2011 by Simon-in-Suffolk

Luau, wave files can incorporate tags in additional chunks. The dbPoweramp application encodes the meta data and puts them in chunks after the PCM data chunk for example. However if a program is not written to understand these chunks, then it simply ignores them (if it is a valid wave file decoder)

Simon

Posted on: 28 March 2011 by Simon-in-Suffolk

Jon, interesting post, I wasn't aware of that. Do you know if Naim also licences the software player platforms from DigiFi for their other platforms such as the NDX?

Simon

Posted on: 28 March 2011 by Richard Lord

Originally Posted by Tog:

.... By the way on UPnP with flac on a blind test using none US ripped files VB and US sound exactly the same. :-) Tog

Tonight I was able to do a three way sound check using my Apple TV (ATV) and my UnityServe (US) ripped files. The ATV outputs both HDMI and a Toslink optical. So I can listen to this digital output either direct from the ATV digital output, or via the HDMI and my TV optical output.

Obviously going to different inputs on the Qute. The ATV files are ALAC and ripped using iTunes and synced to the ATV. I can also listen to the same song ripped using the US and saved to the Netgear NAS. The NAS is connected via Powerline to the US and the US outputs via the Naim DC1 coaxial link to the Qute. With a little care I managed to sync the start of both files. I was then able to switch almost instantly between them and listen either direct from the ATV or via the TV box or the WAV version from the NAS.

Results were very revealing. Both routes taken by the ALAC sounded slightly soft almost recessed.
The bass was definitely weaker, less clear and certainly no real depth. Whereas the US ripped WAV file was in a totally different league SQ-wise. Cleaner, clearer, more incisive, but most importantly far more emotion. The bass was now cleaner and clearer with far more depth. It sounded like an entirely different recording. Before anybody jumps in and reminds me I like bass, I want to emphasise it was about far more then just the bass.

The track I chose is very personal to me, Mireille Mathieu's "Au Revoir Mon Amour". With the WAV file off the NAS tears were streaming down my face towards the end. OK, I am being soppy here.

But importantly, if I can hear these differences then certainly anybody else with even a modicum of ability in the hearing department would also hear them, but probably even more so.

Psychological? I don't think so. These are very real differences. The ATV is second division standard and will be kept as a backup only.

Richard

Posted on: 28 March 2011 by jon h

Someone from naim would have to comment, but as far as i know, the ripping engines (HDX, unitiserve, NS0X) products which are windows XP embedded based use the digifi software components (or derivatives thereof). If you remote desktop into one of these boxes, you can have a good poke around the files and look at the copyright info on each executable.

The players (nsx, unitiqute) are an entirely different embedded platform, not windows based. So I would suspect that there is no digifi code in there.

The digifi thing is no secret -- its on the naim website in PDF files. Go to the HDX page, then to manuals/brochures, scroll down to the White Paper area and check out HDX Cd Ripping Engine - English.

Posted on: 28 March 2011 by Richard Lord

Originally Posted by DavidDever:

Originally Posted by Richard Lord:

Originally Posted by Tog:

I think the psychological impact of spending £2000 on a UnitiServe can be blamed here - me a bottle of Chablis has a similar effect and somewhat cheaper. :-)

Tog

You might be correct. But my ears say you are wrong. So who am I to believe, you or my ears?

One thing I have noticed is the UnityServe, certainly the SSD model does not do a simple iTunes-type rip. In iTunes as soon as it is finished, there is the ripped album.

With my UnityServe, despite taking rather longer to actually do the rip, even after the CD has been ejected and packed away, I see data continues to flow up to the NAS. As long as another 10 minutes. Whatever it is doing during this time must be something helpful, else why bother?

Obviously there is no sign of the album on the DTC until this data flow ceases.

BTW, I only noticed this effect tonight. So my comments regarding SQ were not some subliminal encouragement to believe it must be better because it takes so long to complete.

Richard

The album is copied to its final destination after ripping–this protects against data errors caused by network faults (i.e., taking the Ethernet cable out of the rear of the server).

Thank you, David. My ignorance of this modern techie stuff is truly profound. I am in awe of it. But I also love and embrace it.

Richard

Posted on: 28 March 2011 by Tog

@Richard

If you are getting that kind of reaction listening to your favourite tracks then something is definitely working well.

Comparing wav v alac is probably like comparing a good aged port with a decent sherry.

My point was that over UPnP flac sounds just as good via US or VB. My VB has no dig out but I would love to compare a Sonore server and UnitiServe using their PCI cards.

Tog

Posted on: 30 March 2011 by lhau

I have converted the library to aiff. When I tested streaming them off my synology nas, it worked but would give me a bloody loud hiss at the end of tracks. Damn. I tried and tried and then noted that those tracks without embeded album art played perfectly without that loud hiss. So I tried to convert those problematic tracks with art embed set to off, and the problem goes away. I guess the nas transcoder must have sent even the data block representing the album art to my uniti! So I had to reconvert those tracks with album art once again. The moral of the story is, a turnkey solution like the naimserve make sense for people who don't want all the frustration and trouble. Also even the data is bit perfect, there can be significant difference in plYback as you never know whAt silly thing those software does to your sound data. The story does have a happy ending. The aidf sounded better than both the apple lossless and flac files. I blame it on the transcoder handling of different file formats.

Posted on: 30 March 2011 by Tog

I think the issue is wider in that it is a good idea to use a good UPnP software server rather than rely on the often rather flakey offerings that come free with your NAS. These are fine if all you want to do is stream mp3 files but anything more onerous seems to create problems in my experience. UnitiServe, Asset and Vortexbox all work absolutely fine with Uniti/Qute and I believe the NDX.

Tog

Posted on: 30 March 2011 by Richard Lord

Further to my post about comparisons between the iTunes rip (to Apple Lossless) and my UnityServe Rips to WAV.

I have copied all my iTunes, the majority in AAC (256Kb/S) to a separate folder/share on the NAS. I was surprised to find that those that I had ripped to Apple Lossless, are being played by my UnityServe perfectly well. I am surprised because when I did this test way back, same NAS, but into the uPNP/Ethernet input of the Qute, it displayed: Unrecognised file format. Or something along those lines. Now it is being streamed via CAT 5E, via a six way switch into the UnityServe and it plays!

Any experts, please?

Richard

Posted on: 30 March 2011 by lhau

Tog, Would use vertaxbox bring sq improvement? I am open to all suggestion but hesitater to add more boxes

Posted on: 30 March 2011 by Tog

Compared to your NAS almost certainly and it doesn't cost very much to find out. Download the VB 1.8 iso, burn to a disc and install on an old laptop or PC that you can attach to your network. My Mk2 VB was a Sony Vaio laptop (works with the lid closed) with a dual core atom processor. Worked first time and is low powered and silent. If you are worried about another box - hide it away.

You can build or buy large VB servers for under £600 or spend over £1000 on a bespoke Sonore solution to contrast with Naim's UnitiServe/HDX.

Tog

Posted on: 01 April 2011 by lhau

Originally Posted by Richard Lord:

Have you got this sorted out Richard?

Posted on: 02 April 2011 by DavidDever

Originally Posted by lhau:

Originally Posted by Richard Lord:

Have you got this sorted out Richard?

The UnitiServe is capable of playing back Apple Lossless files and streaming these to your UnitiQute as WAV as well, if you set the Compatibility under UPnP Settings to Decode to WAV.

Posted on: 02 April 2011 by Richard Lord

Originally Posted by DavidDever:

Originally Posted by lhau:

Originally Posted by Richard Lord:

Have you got this sorted out Richard?

The UnitiServe is capable of playing back Apple Lossless files and streaming these to your UnitiQute as WAV as well, if you set the Compatibility under UPnP Settings to Decode to WAV.

Thank you, David. But where are the Compatibility Settings? Presumably not in the UnityServe, as there do not appear to be any options to change anything in it.

Richard

Posted on: 02 April 2011 by Mr Underhill

Hi Richard,

In the web app go to uPNP Settings > Compatibility > Stream Format.

Posted on: 02 April 2011 by Richard Lord

Originally Posted by Mr Underhill:

Hi Richard,

In the web app go to uPNP Settings > Compatibility > Stream Format.

M

Thank you, Mr Underhil. But I have more pressing concerns at the moment. I am unable to connect wirelessly to my Network because there is no \ character on the Naim Qute remote. Several other special characters, including ?, ) and (, but no \

I am desperately trying to find a way to change my Apple Network password so that it conforms to Naim's blinkered view of keyboard characters. Does anybody know a way to change my Network password, please?

Richard

PS apologies for skewing the thread, but I am desperate here

Posted on: 02 April 2011 by Cal

Richard

Do you just want to change your Network password? If so, on a Mac go to Applications then Utilities then Airport Utility. Open that and click the device (Airport Exterme etc), go to Manual set up, then Base Station. There you'll find a box to change the network password. This assumes Mac OSX10.6. Sorry if this is not what you were after!

Best

Cal

Posted on: 02 April 2011 by Richard Lord

Originally Posted by Cal:

Richard

Do you just want to change your Network password? If so, on a Mac go to Applications then Utilities then Airport Utility. Open that and click the device (Airport Exterme etc), go to Manual set up, then Base Station. There you'll find a box to change the network password. This assumes Mac OSX10.6. Sorry if this is not what you were after!

Best

Cal

Thank you, Cal. Done!

But there are still major problems. I will start another thread as it is unfair to the OP to skew it further.

Richard