Burning of Koran in America

You are talking about specific situations of personal safety. I wouldn't say something negative about Islam if I was surrounded by insurgents in Kabul. I wouldn't stick around if I started poking a hornet's nest.

However, if I was a Muslim expressing my view about Jesus in an unflattering caricature, I shouldn't be hesitating because radical Christians in some far off country might arbitrarily start murdering U.N. officers of Islamic descent, and start setting fire to a girls high school, and general rabble-rousing. Don't you see the different concepts at work? I should be able to express myself here and not worry that halfway around the world someone would be killed because of my actions or words.

By the way, you just insulted Hell's Angels by implying they couldn't take a comment about your views on Harley-Davidson. However, they would take such a comment in stride and not be offended. I know, I spent a lot of time with different bikers in the past, ranging from independents to those wearing patches.

Dave

We can pretty much take for granted if someone offends Islam, someone, somewhere may lose their life. The offender (American pastor, Danish Cartoonist) will be blamed for any consequential murder, violence, and/or mayhem. I for one am not willing to allow my life to be governed by dhimmitude.

Dave

Once again total agreement here. Self-censorship is censorship.

If we in the West are to be subject to self-censorship in respect of offending Islamics, then we might just as well install their law code today, and forget our long culture of respect for for free speech and respect for life that has developed over two millennia of Western Law, and cultural values.

I don't care for people who burn books - any books - but accept that it is a facet of our culture that people may burn books, or make religious satiric cartoons.

Remember the rows over Monty Python's films that so offended Roman Catholics. No one was murdered as a result. We have developed values over the centuries to defend and exercise as freethinking people in the West rather than moving back to the Dark Ages that others would have us do, apparently,

Mind you I would pull all British forces out of Afghanistan, and Iraq tomorrow if given the choice, and instantly disengage from the Libyan no-fly-zone operation also. It is as Laurence of Arabia sensibly observed better for Arabs to sort out there own problems tolerably, rather than we sort them out perfectly, as the interference will never be accepted. 

ATB from George

How wonderful it must be to live in that ideal world where our actions only have reasonable and fair consequences.

Sadly that's not the world I find myself in. I live in a world where lunatics are prepared to kill people for having different beliefs. And they're often Muslims. Ask the families of those who have just been slaughtered how they feel about pointless actions such as burning books. Is there no Muslim opinion here?

I'm willing to forgo my (admittedly very weak) urge to burn books if it helps reduce the chance that stone age savages murder innocent people.

It's true I can't stand Harley's with their silencers removed, they're too noisy !  But I respect the fact that HA like Hogs.

There are a couple of real knobs i have for neighbours, I exercise self-censorship all the time when I speak with them.  Why ?  Because we all live on the same street and who wants to be fighting with everyone we disagree or disrespect.  Anyways, I am outta here !

Yes. Although that was a highly creative piece of work that took the great skills of many to put together and is still hugely enjoyed and respected by millions and millions of people around the world. I suspect many more people enjoyed it than were truly offended by it.

Burning a book ain't creative even if by Tracey B.......ing Emin.

Frankly I couldn't give a monkey's if someone burns a few pieces of paper bound with glue as a means of symbolism. I don't think comparing this single act of a lonely attention seeker with Nazi Doctrine quite cuts it either. Others will have a stronger perspective and find they cannot turn the other cheek. But recent events are hardly ' an eye for an eye'.

I can't know for sure but I also suspect that most Muslims around the world would just think "Tsk...what a sap" when he did it.

The murders of the UN workers seems to have been a pre-mediated attack under the guise of a 'clerics' organised demo in Afghanistan. Not a mark of over zealous intolerance by the Afghan population.

I personally am about atheist as you can get, however I also feel others are welcome to choose what they believe if it has no negative impact on my life or others. I guess though what pisses most people off in the world is the usual pushing of thoughtful malice as organised 'faith' and 'belief' representing an entire religion and/or nation.

Anyway. I've had a nice bit of supper and all I said was "that bit of fish was good enough for Jehovah"............Worse! How could it be worse? JEHOVAH, JEHOVAH......And on...

The global community (eg UN,  European Court of Human Rights etc)) has rules setting out what is and what isn't acceptable behaviour. Most nations have signed up to the rules. The rules, as are many rules, are not as clear-cut as we might like them to be.

In the UK, some of our rules are no doubt at variance with those of the UN, ECoHR etc, and I imagine that applies to other nations as well. If all the nations stuck to their own rules and, at least in spirit, these were aligned to the rules of the global community, the world might be a better place.

It is in setting the "rules" that robust discussion is needed. And such discussions shouldn't be intimidated by threats from bloody-minded extremists.

No rules will prevent bloody-minded extremists form carrying out acts of incitement to hatered or killing people in the name of "their cause". IMHO, that is the nature of the problem described in this topic.

It would help, however, if nation-states and the global community were quick to condem extreminst activity and prosecuted such extremeists and punished those found guilty of acting outwith the rules.

I think this is part of the basis of what we often refer to as "civilisation".

However, IMHO, civilisation is much more. For example, it would seek to limit the differential between "rich" and "poor" in a sustainable, global market.

Difficult.

Cheers

Don

He might reasonably have expected to become a target for reprisal himself for the desecration of the Koran, but to expect others to be killed in a country which he probably does not know the location of? I don't think so.

Yep, and Israel, and America, and Britain, and France and many other countries choose to allow other religions to practice their faith and build their houses of worship wherever and whenever they choose. And allow individuals to freely criticize other religions and destroy so called 'holy books', without punishment beyond public condemnation, providing of course no criminal line has been crossed. I'm just wondering whether anyone should be saying "he shouldn't have done it 'cause look what happened", if only because it would lead western countries down a slippery slope. And cede victory to dhimmitude.

Dave

On reflection, I should have included "religious states" as well as "nation states".

I am sure a robust discussion between China and the Islamic block would be interesting. If nothing else, it would put dhimmitude and dhimmi onto the Scrabble board.

Cheers

Don

Well I'm sorry but I disagree. In fact I think the reaction has exceeded his wildest dreams as in his mind and those similarly inclined it has demonstrated that something has to be done about those damn pesky Islamic extremists. The trouble is that for him this means all Muslims. He's now planning an anti Islam demonstration at the biggest mosque in the USA. He's every bit as big a lunatic and menace as the filth who committed the recent murders.

Sadly I haven't yet seen any condemnation from the Muslim community, at least not here in the UK.

What would be the highest score you could make with just those two words (connected - of course)?

I don't know and can't say I'll look into it.

Adam, I love your wit, seriously! Keep it up.

Dave

The concept that we should "respect religious beliefs" infuriates me. I think religious beliefs are ridiculous and cannot, no matter how hard I try, "respect" them. However, I can and do respect the the right of anyone to hold those beliefs. I  also respect the people who were brainwashed into holding those beliefs. Not their fault they were unfortunate to be born into religious families, and not develop the power of critical thinking in any meanigful way (OK, I may be pushing the concept of "respect" a little far here). I also respect the rights of these people to act according to those beliefs UP TO A POINT. The people who committed these murders are far beyond that point.

The guy who burnt the book is just an idiot, but not guilty of murder or any other crime against humanity. He's just your average sky-fairy-believing nutjob. His crime is against intelligence and reasoning. I don't care that he burnt the book, put just think it is (predictably) stupid that he did so, knowing the potential consequences. In his case I actually just don't respect him as a person - nothing really to do with his religious beliefs..

Presumably, some Korans get burnt accidentally. Who do these zealots get stroppy with then?

I was more offended by the poppy burning incident than some book that means jack sh*t to me.

So how do we set about reconciling basic cultural, moral and legal differences where one side sees nothing wrong with cold-blooded murder and the other side doesn't?

Cheers

Don

In general, Arab Muslims consider themselves superior to all other people. They will "tollerate" others, Jews, Hindus, Budhists and Christians more so than others. But this tolleration requires the non-muslim to accept his inferiority to Arab Muslims.

I have always felt sorry for Arab Muslims to be burdened with this great mis-conception. But i'm not convinced that my sorrow extends to compassion.

Cheers

Don

Presumably the american half-wit purchased the book, he can do what he likes with it.

It is all ugly and shouldn't have been done.  There is little sanity and acceptance in today's world.  So sad

If this statement is made because you are an Arab Muslim, then in my experience, you are an exception to the norm. If you are not an Arab Muslim, then the statement is irrelevant in the context of my post.

Cheers

Don