Do powerline adaptors effect hi-fi sound quality?

Powerlines - wouldn't touch 'em with a forty foot, left hand barge pole !

I was testing a TP link AV500 setup prior to installation in a customer's home - I had the sender (transmitter) plugged in and connected to the router, that's all, no receivers plugged in.  I had my 552 switched to my record deck, nothing playing, and could hear a low level noise through the speakers. I turned the volume up to about 12 o'clock (still nothing playing) and the pink noise coming through the speakers was deafening !  Unplugged the powerline sender... silence 

Luckily the customer in question doesn't have a turntable !

...as I said, powerlines - no way on God's green earth.

Hope this helps your decision making, Dave.

Roger

Roger

I am looking for reasons for not using PLA technology. I have just conducted the test I outlined above. DAC-V1 switched to CD input and music streaming via. my Devolo AV200 powerline adaptors. Turned volume to max. and nothing! I would add this is not a test I would recommend for the faint hearted.

Dave

PS Perhaps the customer just had a faulty plug. Even Naim equiment has been known to fail from time to time.

Dave

Just use them if you're happy. I don't like them due to the reasons outlined in the posts above but if they work for your situation then good luck

Certainly not every component has the same sensitivity. As I said in an earlier post, I had a extreme problem with my phono preamp, which obviously runs a high gain circuit. I could hear the data pulses - as I was watching the packets go through network switches.

Same with all my guitar amps, which have very basic power supplies with no filtering.

But many components, depending on their ability to filter the AC feed, will not have any obvious problem. But I do agree with Simon's earlier point that actually hearing noise is the tip of the iceberg, below that the noise floor of the system may still have been increased meaning it loses some (or maybe a lot) of transparency and ability to convey low level detail.

The best test is to play (non-streamed of course) music with the Homeplugs in the AC circuit, then completely remove them and see if your system sounds better.

Just use them if you're happy. I don't like them due to the reasons outlined in the posts above but if they work for your situation then good luck

+1 - completely your choice. They are regrettably legal - so if they work for you and you don't believe the side effects are relevant or appropriate to yourself then great - you have made an informed decision.

Simon

...allbeit the wrong decision. 

(IMHO)

as apparently millions of other people have as well (allegedly).

Yep, a typical case of mass delusion 

*chortle* My views on these devices are well known to anyone that has spent any reasonable time talking to me - I have similar views on WiFi too.

The practicalities are that these devices *WILL* get used - and for some people the convenience is the overriding factor no matter what the EMI / RFI / networking implications are.

I will admit that where I am living at the moment (was going to be temporary but is increasingly becoming less so) I have been using them myself and they do work for me however the simple fact for most installations is that they *CANNOT* be relied upon to keep working and be reliable. I know full well that I have an old Sony Vaio laptop whose PSU will kill data between these devices dead - game over player one. (I am however not using *ANY* of my proper HiFi kit there at the moment - all I have in the way of audio kit at home is a Mu-so and a Qute, the big box stuff is in storage or disseminated amongst some strangely accommodating friends who were only too happy to look after it for me and make sure it gets exercised regularly. )

I've had numerous support calls where these devices have been the cause of issues with streaming and even though they suggest that they can run at 200mbits or 500mbits which look like great performance figures to the general public I've frequently found them struggling to maintain 150-200 *KILOBYTES* a second! We've had issues where people turning on washing machines and dishwashers kill throughput and where fridges also cause problems with mains glitches and spikes.

The simple fact is that from an end user perspective they *CANNOT* be relied upon to give a consistent end-to-end connection and I'm very pleased for all those people (myself included at the moment) for whom they do work but there's far too many times each week that I have to say to someone to just temporarily run an Ethernet cable to try to diagnose an issue and that then works perfectly well ... remember that the best you can hope for if they *DON'T* work for you after a few months is that you can get a refund on them!

It is *ALWAYS* possible to run a network cable ... *ALWAYS* ... it's just whether it is worth the disruption and expense of doing so.

Cheers

Phil

Good post Phil - should be left as a sticky in the streaming forum 

But Dave, you're a NAIM user... you're not one of the 'millions'.  

 

Good post Phil - should be left as a sticky in the streaming forum 

 

Thankyou - as my current "temporary" accommodation seems to be becoming increasingly permanent then I've already had running a permanent wired network "green lighted" so will be getting out the drills and exterior grade CAT5e in the near future.

As an aside I've already got two emails in my inbox that are "I'm suddenly getting dropouts and it's been working OK for a while" problems with setups that are running Ethernet over Mains ... I'll be asking then both to try removing the EOM devices from their setups as the first test.

Phil 

In the interests of returning to the OP's call for positive experiences, rather than the relatively obvious negative that running Ethernet cable is better:

AV Home Plugs are not high power devices, so signal quality can be affected by a number of factors:

• The best performance is achieved when the devices are placed on the same circuit.
• The ability to "jump" circuits will depend on the fuse box. I am not in the UK, and unfamiliar with UK wiring codes. But older properties are usually easier, newer properties may have more advance trip systems that will prevent the Homeplug from jumping circuits.
• Even in the worst case example, where the Homeplugs can only operate on one circuit, this may enable you to place a wi-fi device in a more central location rather than next to your ISP access point.
• The best performance is achieved when the Homeplug is plugged directly into the AC wall socket: plugging it into a power board will significantly reduce throughput. Models are available which have AC sockets on them if you do not have a spare wall socket.
• In an older property, not all wall sockets will be equal. As AV2 is a standardised protocol, and all products are using the Atheros chipset, you can use any manufacturer's management / diagnosis tools to have a look at what is going on. The Netgear one is pretty good. It will provide details on the throughput, etc. So you can try different AC outlets to determine which combinations provide the best input.
• Further to the above, AV2 devices can be configured to provide different levels of throughput priority, and quality, as a network management function. I suspect most people just plug them in, and never configure them correctly.
• All AV2 Homeplugs have a signal quality diode in them - if the signal goes red, pull the plug out and then reinsert it. I have to do this maybe once every 3 weeks. It takes 5 seconds.
• If there is anything else on that circuit that is injecting high frequency hash into that circuit, it will reduce throughput. The offender should be isolated (run them off a filtered power board) - regardless of the impact on the Homeplug, that sort of hash on the AC line would be affecting your system anyway. 

So to the OP, whilst they are not a substitute for hard wired Ethernet, when that is not possible they are the next best game in town. The seven Netgear AV500 plugs I have been using for 3 years have never given me any issue.

And in the 2 months I have been using a Naim UnitiServe with one (via a switch), I have never experienced a drop out. I did get some noise from the SMPS that came with the US, but I replaced that.

Phil,

I've written a simplified guide...

https://drive.google.com/file/...eUU/edit?usp=sharing

Perhaps you'd like to review it (and suggest modifications if you think them useful), currently it's been reviewed by Simon-in-Suffolk and Mike-B, both of whom are highly knowledgeable, but input from your area of expertise would also be most welcome.

If you think it suitable, then you could pass the link on to people.

Just a couple of points:

If anything is injecting enough RFI to stop the Power Line Adapters working, then you have an RFI problem anyway, and PLAs will just make it worse.

The RFI output from the Power Line Adapters is 1000 to 10,000 times more powerful than from the SMPS for the UnitiServe (even by the PLA manufacturers own figures). 

Use PLAs as a last resort, but be aware that they can have also have some negative impacts on other people in your neighbourhood (as well as yourself).  WiFi is probably less intrusive.

Huge

It was your ethernet set-up document that prompted me to start this thread as I didn't want to side track the excellent work you are doing. Since you've referenced your document in this thread perhaps you would consider including Fused's excellent guidelines for setting-up, and using, a PLA network as an annex or appendix to your document.

As I stated in my OP AV200 PLAs are not a substitute for a hard-wired ethernet network but where this isn't practical, or considered too costly to install, it can offer a viable alternative.

Dave

Dave,

At the moment, taking into account the current legislation and other possible repercussions, I'm not prepared to advise people to use devices that don't comply with EN 55022:2010.

I also consider this advice runs contrary to all the information in my doc concerning RFI amelioration.  To advise care to ameliorate the effects from SMPS and other devices and then suggest that people introduce a device that:

1  Is a source of RFI more than 1000 times more powerful than any legal SMPS

2  Can affect other people as well

3  Will not compliant with current EU legislation as of 14th October.

would leave me vulnerable to a charge of hypocrisy.

They are not the way to optimise sound quality, which is the focus of my document.

EN 55022:2010 closes a loophole allowing them to (very dubiously) re-classify a mains socket as a 'Communications Port' so allowing them to squirt more than 10,000 times as much RF energy into it as would be permitted for a 'Mains Connector'.

Huge

I'm no expert in the subject but just trying a gain a better understading of the issues. From what I read on some other websites, which include audio equipment manufacturers, I'm starting to think it may be a case of a few Naimees trying to convince the rest of the world they are wrong.

Dave

Dave,

Unfortunately not, PLAs have actually caused blanket failures of some bands of radio communications in some areas.  They have also occasionally been known to interfere with wired digital communications.  There's more information at

http://www.ban-plt.org.uk/fuss.php

The site has also published some tests on these devices carried out by independent labs, showing them to be non-compliant (there are others I've found as well).

The alternative is to largely abandon RFI control legislation as if one group ignores it then you have a precedent for others.  Do you believe SMPS should be unregulated and emit 1000 times as much crud as they do now?  People curse the quality of the UnitiStream power supply - and that's a very good SMPS, how bad will it get if most SMPS manufacturers don't give a hoot about RFI polution?.  If PLAs manufacturers are allowed to do whatever they want why shouldn't all the others do likewise.

The issue with Naim gear is that the techniques needed for suppression of high levels of RFI impact on sound quality whether the RFI is present or not.  Naim have chosen to maximise sound quality rather than maximise immunity from RFI where this would impact on the sound quality.  The RFI amelioration techniques that do not affect sound, Naim uses.  Those that do affect sound Naim does not use.  This means that Naim kit is more affected by RFI than some others, but in the absence of RFI it can sound better.  This is why Naimees complain about devices that flaunt the RFI regulations.  The regulations are there to protect us from unscrupulous manufacturers.

Finally, whether the existence of biological effect of EMI is true or not is still open to debate.  However if this does turn out to be real, then use of a single pair of PLA could be causing damage to your neighbour's health, never mind your own.

I hope this gives a wider picture of the case against.

Sorry. I forgot to include the radio ham fraternity in the "PLA's not welcome here" camp.

Dave

or anyone who is concerned about keeping a well regulated RF spectrum....

Just re-read the OP's first post, Dave wants to hear from anyone who has had positive experience of POE...  I guess that means all but one post in this thread are not what he wants to hear aabout...  sorry Dave.

Dave, actually the radio ham bands are protected frequencies for the most part and are gapped by PLAs so it only tends to be PLA intermodulation radiation from devices such as hifi or other electronic devices connected to the mains that cause noise in those bands. Its still not welcome but it is very low level in the ham bands therefore radio hams are protected. Its the poor general short wave listener and long reach ADSL user who are affected and increasingly so I understand for the higher throughput PLAs internal aerial FM and DAB listeners who are affected.

Its the EMI protection  organisations whose primary role is to allow devices and industries to operate with out undue interference to each other and otherwise  causing failure or malfunction along with other spectrum stake holders who are most concerned about the PLA industry not conforming to appropriate emission standards. Unfortunately if the PLA groups conformed their technology would be too incapable.

Therefore we have a lovely conflict of interest... and from the side lines where I sit now it looks like big business/lobby group verses the scientists and physicists With interesting twist and turns.. Albeit moving slowly.

Personally I have been impacted by PLAs twice that were not on my property. I called and raised a formal complaint to Ofcom and they had the interference removed.. Not sure how they did it asthey wouldn't    share that part with me because of data protection apparently..but the interference went. So  I believe I can have the issue managed if they affect me again.. and thats good enough for me.

Simon