Naim-Focal-Mojo Beatles Mono playback at Abbey Road

Posted by: Kevin-W on 05 September 2014

OK, so here’s my impressions, for what they’re worth, of the Beatles mono playback at Abbey Road Studio 2 last night (4th September).

 

The equipment was as follows – Vertere turntable, Naim Statement amp and (I think) Focal Grande Utopia speakers. The cart was Ortofon’s new Beatles Mono 2M SE. I don’t now what the arm was (I presume it was a Vertere – maybe their Reference), nor the cables, or the phono stage - perhaps someone from Naim can help out.

 

Physically, a very imposing set-up, if not exactly pretty (the TT and speakers, while finished to an extremely high standard, were rather ugly to my eyes; the Statement was smaller than I expected to be – perhaps it was the size of the room – and was much better looking tin the flesh).

 

And what of the sound? Well, I’ve not heard any of these components before, so I have no idea what was contributing what, and I am sure the room played its part as well; but the sound was disappointing. And I don’t think the records (of which more shortly) were to blame.

 

What was good?  From where I was sitting (about 10 yards back, slightly to the right of centre), the sense of scale was phenomenal, the midrange was awesome, and of course the detail and separation was incredible. I don’t think I’ve heard so much detail extracted from a record before.

 

Sound effects (such as the cock crowing at the beginning of “SPLHC Reprise” or the shortwave radio on “I Am The Walrus" were rendered with jaw-dropping realism and clarity. My old mucker Chris, who came along with me for the evening, has never been convinced by mono; but he – and I think many others in the 150-srong audience – was blown away by the scale, spaciousness and hyper-realistic super-wide soundstage of these mono records. I think anyone who’s ordered either the box set or a selection of individual titles won’t be disappointed. Both the TT and the vinyl were also completely silent – no hum, rumble or pops to be heard at all, even at high volumes. 

 

And the bad?

 

The bass for a start. On “Revolution” it was non-existent, on many other tracks it was bloated, boomy and completely dominated everything else. I love a bit of bass, but really, this was daft. I suspect the speakers were to blame, and possibly the room too. More intimate pieces like “Norwegian Wood”, while impressive in the rendering of the acoustic guitars, was ruined for me because it was completely swamped by flabby, boomy bass.

 

The treble was generally hard and steely, or else slightly muffled. This was especially noticeable on the “White Album” tracks, and was, for a £300,000 system, very disappointing.

 

The thing I like most in music is a bit of “boogie factor” and although this set-up had a bit, it didn’t have enough. Occasionally it was a bit “draggy”, a bit slow and lacking in bite and attack. I’m wondering if the TT was to blame for this. Having lived with an LP12 for some 27 years (and having heard fruitboxes in many other systems, most of them better than mine), I know what this venerable platter-spinner brings to the party, and that’s fun, bounce and a real sense of cohesion and musicality. OK, it may be “coloured” and not “neutral”, but it makes you engage with the music.

 

The Vertere, while more analytical and clearly capable of extracting astonishing amounts of information from the groove, fell way short of the Linn in its musicality and the fun factor. For me, and despite its faults, the LP12 remains by far the best source I have ever heard.

 

Next, I’ll focus on the music played, the mono box and other aspects of the evening.

Posted on: 05 September 2014 by Jay Coleman
Cartridge maybe?

The Ortofon is awfully modest for such an exalted set-up.

Thanks for the update.

I look forward to hearing more.
Posted on: 05 September 2014 by Polarbear

Who brought the Vertere along?

Posted on: 05 September 2014 by Steve C
Originally Posted by Kevin-W:

OK, so here’s my impressions, for what they’re worth, of the Beatles mono playback at Abbey Road Studio 2 last night (4th September).

 

The equipment was as follows – Vertere turntable, Naim Statement amp and (I think) Focal Grande Utopia speakers. The cart was Ortofon’s new Beatles Mono 2M SE. I don’t now what the arm was (I presume it was a Vertere – maybe their Reference), nor the cables, or the phono stage - perhaps someone from Naim can help out.

 

Physically, a very imposing set-up, if not exactly pretty (the TT and speakers, while finished to an extremely high standard, were rather ugly to my eyes; the Statement was smaller than I expected to be – perhaps it was the size of the room – and was much better looking tin the flesh).

 

And what of the sound? Well, I’ve not heard any of these components before, so I have no idea what was contributing what, and I am sure the room played its part as well; but the sound was disappointing. And I don’t think the records (of which more shortly) were to blame.

 

What was good?  From where I was sitting (about 10 yards back, slightly to the right of centre), the sense of scale was phenomenal, the midrange was awesome, and of course the detail and separation was incredible. I don’t think I’ve heard so much detail extracted from a record before.

 

Sound effects (such as the cock crowing at the beginning of “SPLHC Reprise” or the shortwave radio on “I Am The Walrus" were rendered with jaw-dropping realism and clarity. My old mucker Chris, who came along with me for the evening, has never been convinced by mono; but he – and I think many others in the 150-srong audience – was blown away by the scale, spaciousness and hyper-realistic super-wide soundstage of these mono records. I think anyone who’s ordered either the box set or a selection of individual titles won’t be disappointed. Both the TT and the vinyl were also completely silent – no hum, rumble or pops to be heard at all, even at high volumes. 

 

And the bad?

 

The bass for a start. On “Revolution” it was non-existent, on many other tracks it was bloated, boomy and completely dominated everything else. I love a bit of bass, but really, this was daft. I suspect the speakers were to blame, and possibly the room too. More intimate pieces like “Norwegian Wood”, while impressive in the rendering of the acoustic guitars, was ruined for me because it was completely swamped by flabby, boomy bass.

 

The treble was generally hard and steely, or else slightly muffled. This was especially noticeable on the “White Album” tracks, and was, for a £300,000 system, very disappointing.

 

The thing I like most in music is a bit of “boogie factor” and although this set-up had a bit, it didn’t have enough. Occasionally it was a bit “draggy”, a bit slow and lacking in bite and attack. I’m wondering if the TT was to blame for this. Having lived with an LP12 for some 27 years (and having heard fruitboxes in many other systems, most of them better than mine), I know what this venerable platter-spinner brings to the party, and that’s fun, bounce and a real sense of cohesion and musicality. OK, it may be “coloured” and not “neutral”, but it makes you engage with the music.

 

The Vertere, while more analytical and clearly capable of extracting astonishing amounts of information from the groove, fell way short of the Linn in its musicality and the fun factor. For me, and despite its faults, the LP12 remains by far the best source I have ever heard.

 

Next, I’ll focus on the music played, the mono box and other aspects of the evening.

Kevin I bet Steve's system and room would have been a better place to hear them.

Posted on: 05 September 2014 by Kevin-W
Originally Posted by Polarbear:

Who brought the Vertere along?

Sorry Nigel, I don't know.

Posted on: 05 September 2014 by Kevin-W
Originally Posted by Jay Coleman:
Cartridge maybe?

The Ortofon is awfully modest for such an exalted set-up.

Thanks for the update.

I look forward to hearing more.

It could be the cartridge Jay, but as I had never heard any of the components before it was difficult to tell. However what I heard led me to suspect the speakers, and maybe the TT, with the room - magical as it is - possibly playing a part.

Posted on: 05 September 2014 by Kevin-W
Originally Posted by Steve C:

Kevin I bet Steve's system and room would have been a better place to hear them.

Steve's system certainly ticks all the boxes for me.

Posted on: 05 September 2014 by Steve J

Thanks chaps. The Statement should kick my system into touch though.

Posted on: 05 September 2014 by Polarbear
Originally Posted by Kevin-W:
Originally Posted by Jay Coleman:
Cartridge maybe?

The Ortofon is awfully modest for such an exalted set-up.

Thanks for the update.

I look forward to hearing more.

It could be the cartridge Jay, but as I had never heard any of the components before it was difficult to tell. However what I heard led me to suspect the speakers, and maybe the TT, with the room - magical as it is - possibly playing a part.

 

Interesting, you haven't heard any of the components before and you lay the blame in the hands of the TT 

 

The reason why I asked who brought the Vertere was because there was no way Mr T would use an Ortofon Cartridge with the Vertere. The worst sound I have heard from a Roksan TT was when one was used with an Ortofon cartridge many years ago at the Heathrow show. Henley designs had insisted that the cartridge was used on the  Xerxes/Artimez combination rather than the usual Shiraz cartridge. The result was a slow plodding overblown mess and it left Me T with a glum frustrated look on his face. The result was that the Roksan Xerxes was slated on many a forum for being slow and overblown. Any Xerxes user will tell you that they are far from that.

Posted on: 05 September 2014 by Kevin-W

Moving away from the gear for a moment, I must say that I was very very impressed by the quality of these mono records from my brief view of them. The sleeves are beautifully printed, and complete with flipbacks (and The White Album is a toploader, and individually numbered), and the vinyl looks thick and flat, without blemishes or fill-in.

 

The book is also a thing of wonder, crammed full of pictures I'd never seen before, and printed to a very high standard, with spot varnishes and the like.

 

Interestingly, although the individual albums will have barcodes, those in the box apparently won't.

Posted on: 05 September 2014 by Polarbear
Originally Posted by Steve J:

Thanks chaps. The Statement should kick my system into touch though.

 

 

No system is ever as good as its greatest component, as we all know its about the whole system, the synergy and the balance. Quite often any system is only as good as its weakest link.

 

I am sure the system being shown was very good but I know I have yet to hear what the statement is truly capable of.

Posted on: 05 September 2014 by Kevin-W
Originally Posted by Polarbear:
Originally Posted by Kevin-W:
Originally Posted by Jay Coleman:
Cartridge maybe?

The Ortofon is awfully modest for such an exalted set-up.

Thanks for the update.

I look forward to hearing more.

It could be the cartridge Jay, but as I had never heard any of the components before it was difficult to tell. However what I heard led me to suspect the speakers, and maybe the TT, with the room - magical as it is - possibly playing a part.

 

Interesting, you haven't heard any of the components before and you lay the blame in the hands of the TT 

 

Bad bear! That's not quite what I said. The speakers were definitely the biggest offender in my disappointment, but with two exceptions, the music felt to me slightly slower, more plodding than it should do.That's really all that interests me - what my ears tell me. What the designer intends isn't that relevant as far as I am concerned.

 

In my experience some of these over-engineered turntables seem to suck the joy (if not the detail) out of music. From what I heard the Vertere (in this context) might have been doing just that. A few months ago at a posh party in Kensington I was invited round to a neighbour's house to hear his mega-system. I can't remember exactly what the system was, but there were Jeff Rowland amps and an Air Force One, a massive (and extremely ugly) TT. It was very impressive in its way, but not a great deal of fun.

 

But what the hell do I know? The best turntable I've ever heard is an old Scottish design that looks like a fruit box.

Posted on: 05 September 2014 by SamS
Originally Posted by Kevin-W

 

Interestingly, although the individual albums will have barcodes, those in the box apparently won't.

People have been posting photos on the Hoffman forum. The individuals have large stickers on the plastic clear sleeve where the barcode resides. So no need for one on the jacket. A nice touch. 

 

The natives are rabid over there and those that have received them early, of which there appear to be many, are absolutely in awe of the quality of the playback.  

Posted on: 05 September 2014 by Polarbear
Originally Posted by Kevin-W:
Originally Posted by Polarbear:
Originally Posted by Kevin-W:
Originally Posted by Jay Coleman:
Cartridge maybe?

The Ortofon is awfully modest for such an exalted set-up.

Thanks for the update.

I look forward to hearing more.

It could be the cartridge Jay, but as I had never heard any of the components before it was difficult to tell. However what I heard led me to suspect the speakers, and maybe the TT, with the room - magical as it is - possibly playing a part.

 

Interesting, you haven't heard any of the components before and you lay the blame in the hands of the TT 

 

Bad bear! That's not quite what I said. The speakers were definitely the biggest offender in my disappointment, but with two exceptions, the music felt to me slightly slower, more plodding than it should do.That's really all that interests me - what my ears tell me. What the designer intends isn't that relevant as far as I am concerned.

 

In my experience some of these over-engineered turntables seem to suck the joy (if not the detail) out of music. From what I heard the Vertere (in this context) might have been doing just that. A few months ago at a posh party in Kensington I was invited round to a neighbour's house to hear his mega-system. I can't remember exactly what the system was, but there were Jeff Rowland amps and an Air Force One, a massive (and extremely ugly) TT. It was very impressive in its way, but not a great deal of fun.

 

But what the hell do I know? The best turntable I've ever heard is an old Scottish design that looks like a fruit box.

 

and sounds like a ..... !    honestly its not my place to say, I have hear many a fine fruit box at Cymbiosis.

 

From what you say, the slow plodding sound probably came from the cartridge, as I said earlier their not the best matches for Roksan/Vertere TT's.

 

I must admit to being very jealous, I am yet to hear the Vretere TT in any context so won't comment too much, I just know the signature sound owning a TMS.

 

I will admit to over engineered decks sounding awful, the worst I have heard was at last years Wigwam open day where someone brought along a mega expensive mega engineered deck, can't remember the name but it sounded bloody awful. Each to their own I suspect.

Posted on: 05 September 2014 by kuma

To this day, I have never heard a successful demo using a big Focal Utopia at the back end no matter what was driving. ( bloomy bass with tweeters that are out of place )

 

That said, possible that turntable was not set up correctly. I have heard many demos at shows that the poorly set up turntable making poor sound as described here. ( plodding bass and hard and steely highs: a wrong VTA maybe? )

No way that Touraj designs such a poor sounding turntable so it's probably more of a set up issue than the table itself.

 

Ortofon isn't exactly a speed champ, but should not sound that badly.

 

In any case, a mega bux public demo is like an epic film. It's the easiest to make the worst of. 

Posted on: 06 September 2014 by The Strat (Fender)

3 points. First I've heard the Statements twice now and they are awesome but I would so love to hear them with any number of other speakers out there.

 

Second when I first had my Xerxes I had an Ortofon Cadenza but frankly it was transformed when the Dynavector was installed.

 

Third and this is the controversial bit - why unless purely out of sentiment go back to Mono?

 

 

Posted on: 06 September 2014 by Steve J

Strat, you can't have many original mono recordings otherwise you wouldn't be asking the question.

Posted on: 06 September 2014 by bluedog
Originally Posted by Steve J:

Strat, you can't have many original mono recordings otherwise you wouldn't be asking the question.

There is something special abut good mono recordings / pressings - particularly with small ensemble repertoire of any genre IMO

Posted on: 06 September 2014 by The Strat (Fender)
Originally Posted by Steve J:

Strat, you can't have many original mono recordings otherwise you wouldn't be asking the question.

Well not that many true but we do have an original Please Please Me in Mono, a couple of Dr Feelgoods and a few classical LPs and frankly I'd rather have stereo any day. Perhaps I've just become accustomed.

 

 

 

Posted on: 06 September 2014 by Polarbear

And is there something special about these mono recordings?  

 

Are they worth the asking price?

Posted on: 06 September 2014 by BigH47
Originally Posted by Polarbear:

And is there something special about these mono recordings?  

 

Are they worth the asking price?

 

Not really just Beatles music, every day pop IMO. 

Posted on: 06 September 2014 by Steve J

Oh Howard. I know Sally likes them and you have the full catalogue on your hard drive.  

Posted on: 07 September 2014 by hafler3o
Originally Posted by Wat:
  And then we had the unquestionably great Fairport Convention and Hotlegs who became ....

 

Pan's People!

 

 

 

or in another (more mundane) life, 10CC.

Posted on: 08 September 2014 by Kevin-W
Originally Posted by Wat:
 And then we had the unquestionably great twee folk bores Fairport Convention and irritating one-hit wonders Hotlegs who became... 10CC, equally irksome purveyors of nowhere-near-as-clever-as-it-thinks-it-is pop

 

Here you go Wat, fixed that for you! Reads much better now...

Posted on: 08 September 2014 by Kevin-W

On to the music! The tracks played were as follows:

 

Helter Skelter

Revolution (single version)

Sgt Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band Reprise

A Day in the Life

Boys

I Am The Walrus

While My Guitar Gently Weeps

Love Me Do (Mono Masters version - recorded in that very room, 52 years to the day!)

Norwegian Wood

 

By some margin, "Boys" was the best and most enjoyable song of the night. It really felt as if Ringo and the boys were playing , right there in front of you. significantly, it was one of two songs where the bass sounded just right, with Macca's brilliant innovative lines coming through loud and clear. There was a real punch and cohesiveness about the performance, and it sounded as if the lads were having fun - and there were a lot of big grins in the audience.

 

The other song that really worked - surprisingly, perhaps, given its chequered history and the fact that the master has been lost, apparently - was LMD. Again, it was fast, punchy, full of attack, utterly cohesive and again, not overwhelmed by flabby, boomy bass.

 

As I said in a previous post, all the others were marred in some way by a surfeit of bass, or a lack of it, or muffled treble; although the scale and width of the presentation was impressive, and the levels of detail were staggering.

 

But the evening wasn’t just about playing music through a pricey stereo. There was also an excellent panel session and all-too-short audience Q&A, ably moderated by genial veteran rock hack Mark Ellen. On the panel were Sean Magee, the mastering engineer on these beauties; legendary engineer and producer Ken Scott; Beatles buff and author Kevin Howlett; and Toerag Studios owner/producer and mono enthusiast Liam Watson.

 

Scott's stories were particularly interesting, as he was actually there -he revealed that the radically different stereo mix of  Helter Skelter (it’s a minute longer than the mono mix and ends with Ringo’s famous cry of “I’ve got blisters on my fingers!") was inspired by Paul McCartney’s realisation that fans were becoming increasingly interested in comparing the two versions. “He [Paul] told me, ‘If we make them different than we’ll sell twice as many records.’”.

 

Scott also explained that the jet engine sound effect on "Back In The USSR" is different on the two mixes because the tape used on the mono version became so worn out it began to wow and flutter. And, although he was engineer on the track, he couldn't remember Clapton turning up to play on "While My Guitar Gently Weeps"!

 

There's a short report and some photos from Mojo magazine, here.

Posted on: 08 September 2014 by The Strat (Fender)
Originally Posted by Polarbear:

And is there something special about these mono recordings?  

 

Are they worth the asking price?


Well PB I understand the pressings are excellent and so they should be.  But I still return to the point why on earth go back to Mono?

 

Are we seriously saying that there would be a sonic advantage to listening to any album in Mono? I sit and listen to Pirates by Ricki Lee and on that opening track we Belong Together I get that awesome moment when Steve Gadds drum role at 3 mins moves across the soundstage.  In Mono it just wouldn't do that.

 

OK the early Beatles albums were engineered in Mono I grant so it could be argued that that's how they should be heard but there was a point when they would have been originally engineered in Stereo - Revolver onwards? No doubt they sound superb just as they do in Stereo.

 

Apologies for sounding like a - urm stuck gramaphone record.