At war, again
Posted by: Bruce Woodhouse on 26 September 2014
How does this happen? Within days the armed forces of my country will once again be at war; and yet we seem to have had no real debate or indeed dissent.
I'm ashamed of our response. Do we not understand that we are doing exactly what ISIS want? Islamic jihadist recruitment gets easier with every assault, and ISIS has grown up as a function of our previous actions in the region which created fragmented, embittered, radicalised and desperate populations with common cause against the West in general, and against anyone who opposes them locally. I'm reminded of the sorcerer's apprentice, the threat doubling with every swipe of the axe.
ISIS are apparently formless, and stateless. They will melt into the populations and diversify under our crude assault, bubbling up under different banners in different places. They will work their propaganda with all the tools we give them. They will use civilian shields and gain strength as we expect them to wilt. They will behead one more journalist and we will respond with hundreds of tons of explosive dropped from a plane.
I'm nauseated by our stupidity. I'm repelled by the sanitised language of war; the 'surgical strikes' and 'precision weapons' and 'collateral damage'. All nonsense; we are killing, maiming and destroying. We are are creating the landscape of future rebellion, not 'degrading' it.
The only route to moderation and peace is a socio-economic one, yet we destroy the infrastructure and the economies anew. Many on here berated the inability of Israel and Palestine to move away from the action/reprisal vicious circle yet we are doing the same.
Well I don't support it. No, I don't have a decent alternative because the whole thing is such a monstrous mess since we waded in with our dear US alies that I cannot see how it can be rescued however I know what we are doing will not work, it won't make me any safer and it won't make the communities of the region any safer. It will just make the vulnerable hate us all the more, and we will kill people literally uncounted in the process.
OK, I'll get on with my work now. I don't feel better but hey ho. I just don't understand how we let our leaders do this, again and again. Too distracted by the golf it seems.
Bruce
George
i thought you left here, again, only yesterday?
George
i thought you left here, again, only yesterday?
He loves us too much to let us go! 
ISIS is strictly an Islamic issue, or at least was till the west decided to target them. It is about time for the Moslem world to stand up and take care of its own problems. These nations definitely do not lack any resources nor capacity.
ISIS would not stand the slightest chance if countries like Egypt, Turkey Iran and Jordan sent their well trained ground forces together to free Iraq and later Syria. These nations all have modern air forces to run an air campaign as well. Such a wide coalition of Arab and non-Arab states consisting of Sunnis and Shiites soldiers has a better chance of succeeding as a unified force. The oil producing nations can easily foot the bill.
The western world should concentrate solely on preventing its citizens from joining ISIS, cutting off any flow of funds to the radicals and supply intelligence to the Moslem forces who are taking care of business.
That is so true. Which is why none of these problems will ever be solved until the Palestinians attain some sort of sovereignty and peace. Every time a Palestinian mother weeps for her dead child, or another young Arab in Gaza is killed by an Israeli soldier, the Islamist extremists gain another five, 10 or 20 potential foot soldiers.
I beg to differ. The conflict between the Palestinians and Israelis is over land and the shape of the future Palestinian state, not a religious one. Their priority in an arm struggle is to fight the IDF and not to join any extreme Islamist movement which is concentrating on cleansing 'unholy' elements within their own faith.
On a related subject it is hard not to believe that the Chilcott enquiry into the Iraq war (which was started over 5 years ago) is either being deliberately supressed or obstructed until any conclusion becomes irrelevant. Maybe they are waiting for Blair's Middle East peace work to come to fruition....
Bruce
(The enquiry webpage is interesting. The last public hearings were in 2011 yet the costs of staff wages and admin in 2013/4 were over £1.5m.)
My post was a reasonable perspective, and your response was ignorant of basic grace. No, my response wasn't. It was robust and to the point. Simply challenging your opinion.
It is time for the West to butt-out of Middle Eastern Government. We did not save these people from the Ottoman Empire in the last five generations to be permanently responsible for all Politics in the Middle East ...
Germany was rescued from Nazi Tyranny three generations ago and by now even the most oppressed have got over it.
Time for us to let Arab fight Arab without intervention [they will get tired of it eventually] If life were just so easy..........- this is not Bosnia which was a European problem after all [and was certainly our cultural domain] - we could have just as easily left Eastern Europe to itself, not that I am advocating that that would have been right. but now defend our own borders from the madmen, rather than create 150 Islamists for every perfectly innocent collateral death in Arabia caused by British or US bombs, or any of the other 40 nations' bombs involved on the side of decency.....its not just the USA/UK, but you know that and simply ignore it.
Time to stop behaving in the "gun-boat" diplomacy-style of the "top-nation" in the World as pre-1918. We aren't. There are 40 nations involved.
I am fairly sure that the British Security Services know who really need watching in the UK. Possibly, but the issue is wider than that.
Perhaps we need to accept some surveillance of the UK population to prevent bombings in London, Birmingham or Manchester, but we don't have to cross the bridge and tell which Arab need kill which other ArabWe aren't telling Arabs what to, we are helping those who are requesting help ... with the risk to British Military personal as well an ever enhanced threat of radicalised home grown population directly as a result. There is no such thing as clean War or surgical attacks. Agreed. See my first post, i've been at the dirty end. It is all dirty, and the cost needs weighing against the heritage that lasts generations. Again, see my first post, 40 years of peace in southern Oman. After all we should have deposed Mugabe So you DO consider regime change to be justified.? long before ever getting into Afghanistan or Iraq with the USA. Twice we tried in Af, and failed [in the 19th. C.], and so we should have learned out lesson and stop meddling ...
George
On a related subject it is hard not to believe that the Chilcott enquiry into the Iraq war (which was started over 5 years ago) is either being deliberately supressed or obstructed until any conclusion becomes irrelevant. Maybe they are waiting for Blair's Middle East peace work to come to fruition....you're talking about gold-plated government-funded pensions again ?
Bruce
(The enquiry webpage is interesting. The last public hearings were in 2011 yet the costs of staff wages and admin in 2013/4 were over £1.5m.)
That is so true. Which is why none of these problems will ever be solved until the Palestinians attain some sort of sovereignty and peace. Every time a Palestinian mother weeps for her dead child, or another young Arab in Gaza is killed by an Israeli soldier, the Islamist extremists gain another five, 10 or 20 potential foot soldiers.
I beg to differ. The conflict between the Palestinians and Israelis is over land and the shape of the future Palestinian state, not a religious one. Their priority in an arm struggle is to fight the IDF and not to join any extreme Islamist movement which is concentrating on cleansing 'unholy' elements within their own faith.
Haim, I never said it was a religious conflict. The disputes may be over land, but the Islamic world doesn't see it that way.
They see their Muslim brothers and sisters being killed and oppressed by invaders of their ancient lands, with the support and connivance of the West. This impression may or may not be correct, but they certainly feel it. It's the one issue that unites Muslims, be they Sunni or Shia, Arab, Pakistani, West African or Malaysian.
They don't.
Thank you for that well-argued, carefully-reasoned reply, which offers up an exemplary analysis - backed up with examples - of a complex situation.
However, despite the persuasiveness of your arguments, I have to beg to differ.
Seeing the US' position in any sort of altruistic light is beyond preposterous; we are there because the monied interests want us there, and for their own purposes...not the good of the planet or any sub-sect of people on the planet.
It's just how we roll.
Look at the bright side - for you Brits it's "at war...again".
For we Yanks it's "at war...still."
Look at the bright side - for you Brits it's "at war...again".
For we Yanks it's "at war...still."
Yes. Its just a continuation of the "Wild West" and "How the West was Won".
Its an inbred instinct of the desendants of the Europeans who settled North America between 1700 to 1950.
Dear Don,
I think I shall have to pop out and buy some more SAXA, as you really are posting a load of BolloX
See, two can play at it!
ATB from George
Dear Don,
I think I shall have to pop out and buy some more SAXA, as you really are posting a load of BolloX
See, two can play at it!
ATB from George
They don't.
Thank you for that well-argued, carefully-reasoned reply, which offers up an exemplary analysis - backed up with examples - of a complex situation.
However, despite the persuasiveness of your arguments, I have to beg to differ.
Just because an organisation says it has an intention do take over the world is not reson to take that seriously. People say daft things all the time.
Until these people physically threaten our borders I see no reason for the West to involve themselves in Middle East politics. Clearly we disagree and I doubt either will be persuaded to the other's view.
That is so true. Which is why none of these problems will ever be solved until the Palestinians attain some sort of sovereignty and peace. Every time a Palestinian mother weeps for her dead child, or another young Arab in Gaza is killed by an Israeli soldier, the Islamist extremists gain another five, 10 or 20 potential foot soldiers.
I beg to differ. The conflict between the Palestinians and Israelis is over land and the shape of the future Palestinian state, not a religious one. Their priority in an arm struggle is to fight the IDF and not to join any extreme Islamist movement which is concentrating on cleansing 'unholy' elements within their own faith.
Haim, I never said it was a religious conflict. The disputes may be over land, but the Islamic world doesn't see it that way.
They see their Muslim brothers and sisters being killed and oppressed by invaders of their ancient lands, with the support and connivance of the West. This impression may or may not be correct, but they certainly feel it. It's the one issue that unites Muslims, be they Sunni or Shia, Arab, Pakistani, West African or Malaysian.
Kevin,
If you are correct and Moslems from all over the world are unified by the ONE issue of Israel's occupation how come they volunteer to go kill and get killed in Iraq and Syria for the sole purpose of purification of Islam and not one of them thinks of joining the ranks of Hamas in their fight against the 'invaders of their ancient land'?
I suspect that if Israel did not exist the Arabs would have had to invent it. Otherwise, who would they blame for all their malaises?
This automatic plug in of the palestinian/Israeli conflict in every embarrassing Arab moment always reminds me of Saudi Prince Alwaleed bin Talal who graciously offered 10 million dollars to mayor Giuliani for the victims of 911 while suggesting that the attack was an indication that the US should re-examine its Middle East policy and be more favorable to the Palestinian cause.. Needless to say, the NY mayor returned the check on the spot.
Personally, I don't think that the ISIS story has anything to do with the Palestinian/Israeli conflict. For others though it is a chance to remind us again of the ugly Israeli.
My post was a reasonable perspective, and your response was ignorant of basic grace.
It is time for the West to butt-out of Middle Eastern Government. We did not save these people from the Ottoman Empire in the last five generations to be permanently responsible for all Politics in the Middle East ...
Germany was rescued from Nazi Tyranny three generations ago and by now even the most oppressed have got over it.
Time for us to let Arab fight Arab without intervention [they will get tired of it eventually] - this is not Bosnia which was a European problem after all [and was certainly our cultural domain] - but now defend our own borders from the madmen, rather than create 150 Islamists for every perfectly innocent collateral death in Arabia caused by British or US bombs.
Time to stop behaving in the "gun-boat" diplomacy-style of the "top-nation" in the World as pre-1918.
I am fairly sure that the British Security Services know who really need watching in the UK.
Perhaps we need to accept some surveillance of the UK population to prevent bombings in London, Birmingham or Manchester, but we don't have to cross the bridge and tell which Arab need kill which other Arab ... with the risk to British Military personal as well an ever enhanced threat of radicalised home grown population directly as a result. There is no such thing as clean War or surgical attacks. It is all dirty, and the cost needs weighing against the heritage that lasts generations. After all we should have deposed Mugabe long before ever getting into Afghanistan or Iraq with the USA. Twice we tried in Af, and failed [in the 19th. C.], and so we should have learned out lesson and stop meddling ...
George
Kevin,
If you are correct and Moslems from all over the world are unified by the ONE issue of Israel's occupation how come they volunteer to go kill and get killed in Iraq and Syria for the sole purpose of purification of Islam and not one of them thinks of joining the ranks of Hamas in their fight against the 'invaders of their ancient land'?
I suspect that if Israel did not exist the Arabs would have had to invent it. Otherwise, who would they blame for all their malaises?
This automatic plug in of the palestinian/Israeli conflict in every embarrassing Arab moment always reminds me of Saudi Prince Alwaleed bin Talal who graciously offered 10 million dollars to mayor Giuliani for the victims of 911 while suggesting that the attack was an indication that the US should re-examine its Middle East policy and be more favorable to the Palestinian cause.. Needless to say, the NY mayor returned the check on the spot.
Personally, I don't think that the ISIS story has anything to do with the Palestinian/Israeli conflict. For others though it is a chance to remind us again of the ugly Israeli.
Haim, I never said the Israel-Palestine conflict was the cause of IS' rise, but as long as that conflict continues, groups like IS will continue to find support. Because - whether you or I like it or not - Muslims worldwide see Israel's treatment of Palestine as the biggest injustice in the world, and as ong as this injustice can be used as a rallying call, extremists will be able to exploit it.
They don't.
Thank you for that well-argued, carefully-reasoned reply, which offers up an exemplary analysis - backed up with examples - of a complex situation.
However, despite the persuasiveness of your arguments, I have to beg to differ.
Just because an organisation says it has an intention do take over the world is not reson to take that seriously. People say daft things all the time.
Until these people physically threaten our borders I see no reason for the West to involve themselves in Middle East politics. Clearly we disagree and I doubt either will be persuaded to the other's view.
Well, I agree with you that IS' ambitions of establishing a global caliphate will never be fulfilled. Nor are they ever likely to invade Blighty. But you cannot be complacent and deny that IS are a threat to - say - the UK. They are, because there are scores of them here in the UK, and their ability to or willingness to cause death and mayhem should not be underestimated.
Re the IS threat to the UK.
Do you believe that will be reduced as a result of our involvement in the current action?
My problem is that I think if fails to make us safer, short or long term. I think it stokes the fires for generations ahead.
Bruce
CNN reported that Turkey's parliament voted yesterday to authorize military force, including ground troops, against IS in both Syria and Iraq. Coalition forces will also be allowed to use bases in Turkey to launch missions. We know the Turks hate the Kurds, but they also hate having hundreds of thousands of Kurdish refugees fleeing across their border. It appears their ground offensive will have the goal of establishing a safe zone, someplace for refugees to eventually return to.
Hook
Re the IS threat to the UK.
Do you believe that will be reduced as a result of our involvement in the current action?
My problem is that I think if fails to make us safer, short or long term. I think it stokes the fires for generations ahead.
Bruce
Not sure if that question was aimed at me in particular, or the forum in general, but UK intervention certainly isn't going to help Bruce. These conflicts are never won by air strikes (no matter how surgical) or high-tech. Much better would have been to put pressure on the Turks and the Saudis/Qataris to stop assisting IS, bring the Iranians into the fold, and to provide the Kurdish Peshmerga, Iraqi government et al with intelligence, arms etc and let them sort it out.
CNN reported that Turkey's parliament voted yesterday to authorize military force, including ground troops, against IS in both Syria and Iraq. Coalition forces will also be allowed to use bases in Turkey to launch missions. We know the Turks hate the Kurds, but they also hate having hundreds of thousands of Kurdish refugees fleeing across their border. It appears their ground offensive will have the goal of establishing a safe zone, someplace for refugees to eventually return to.
Hook
Yes Hook, I think this is quite a positive development. Also, there is evidence to suggest that Turkey has for too long been turning a blind eye to jihadists sneaking into and out of Syria and Iraq via its border. Hopefully the southern border will now be a lot less porous.