Bach - Sonatas for Violin and Harpsicord BWV 1014-1019
Posted by: CFMF on 14 October 2014
I've been listening to these very late Bach works lately. I quite like the recording by Giuliano Carmignola and Andrea Marcon. Carmignola plays a baroque violin. Anyone else familiar with these?
BBM
Listen to Glenn Gould and Jaime Laredo, you will be amazed.
BP.
Thanks BP,
I'll put an order in and give it a try. I really like Gould in Bach; what can one expect, after all I'm Canadian...
BBM
BBM,
It is in high rotation here. I got it after a recommendation by EJ last year and the disc never left our coffee table, remaining always within an easy reach. I also greatly enjoy Carmignola's Concerto Veneziano:
Regards,
Haim
The violin sonatas are well worth a listen - Grumiaux et al on Philips Duo are excellent.
Listen to Glenn Gould and Jaime Laredo, you will be amazed.
BP.
I'm listening to the Gould/Laredo recording as I type this. Very impressed to say the least! Thanks again for the recommendation...
BBM
BPhotographer,
I just ordered a used copy of the Gould/ Laredo disc. I guess (judging by its high cost) that the recording is out of print. Thanks for the recommendation.
Haim
BPhotographer,
I just ordered a used copy of the Gould/ Laredo disc. I guess (judging by its high cost) that the recording is out of print. Thanks for the recommendation.
Haim
Haim,
If you are like me, you can appreciate the sound of a harpsichord only for so long. I find that in these compositions, the use of a piano allows for a greater ability to follow the violin's line. This is simply my preference, and I certainly do not wish to start a debate about this. No doubt others will feel different. So be it...
I would be interested in what you think when you hear the Gould/Laredo recording. It really is quite excellent IMO.
BBM
I find differently.
The pianoforte is perfect for Beethoven, Brahms and Debussy, but for Bach I find it to be sacrine - a false sweetness that dimishes the strength of the music. Weakens it and rots the ear.
ATB from George
No pianist would attempt "Feuilles mortes" on the harpsichord or the "Emperor Concerto," so why would they perform Bach harpsichord music on the piano. It is completely the wrong instrument.
ATB from George
I find differently.
The pianoforte is perfect for Beethoven, Brahms and Debussy, but for Bach I find it to be sacrine - a false sweetness that dimishes the strength of the music. Weakens it and rots the ear.
ATB from George
George,
I am well aware of your position regarding Bach on the piano. I humbly disagree, but I respect your rationale. Horses for courses and all that. Oh, and my ears are not rotting btw.
BBM
Dear BBM,
I love it when someone comes to love the music of JS Bach - even on the piano!
From this entree, this new Bach lover may then advance to a point where the sweetness of the piano is only the ketchup that enabled them to first get something of the flavour, before relishing the full flavour!
I grant that the full-fat-flavour of Bach on the harpsichord is as difficult as pickled Gherkins, or Norwegian Goats Cheese initially, but once it is appreciated, then one might be left wondering why one wanted ketchup or majonaze to smooth out the impact a little ...
ATB from George
Dear BBM,
I love it when someone comes to love the music of JS Bach - even on the piano!
From this entree, this new Bach lover may then advance to a point where the sweetness of the piano is only the ketchup that enabled them to first get something of the flavour, before relishing the full flavour!
I grant that the full-fat-flavour of Bach on the harpsichord is as difficult as pickled Gherkins, or Norwegian Goats Cheese initially, but once it is appreciated, then one might be left wondering why one wanted ketchup or majonaze to smooth out the impact a little ...
ATB from George
George,
Subtle, but well concealed putdown noted. I'll stick with the ketchup, thanks. No offence intended.
BBM
Dear BBM,
Absolutely no put down intended.
I have sent beginners to Bach via piano performances, when I thought it would ease the pain! Sugar on the penicilin for an attack of pneumonia ...
I don't know if you enjoy Gherkins or Goats Cheese [what the Norwegians call brown cheese], but if you do then you will appreciate the point about an acquired taste ... We live long after the time when the piano was an exotic stranger and keyboards were Organs, Clavichords and Harpsichords, and so these are not the point of reference for most people. Only if you persist will you learn that the intended instrument brings out subtleties that can often only be hinted at with a keyboard that placed the dynamic of the note with the force that it is struck. A hard strike on the harpsichord merely changes the brightness of the tone, and not its loudness.
As soon as you introduce the performer based dynamic control that the piano brings will you not find the dynamic that Bach intends. A good harpsichord certainly preserved the balance of lines in counter-point, but it is the density of notes in any given time spell [notes per second or minute] that gives the overall dynamic.
No piano can really manage this, though Artur Schnabel certain approached this in Bach recordings made for HMV in London. The reviewers questioned this flat dynamic approach with the reasonable question of "why Schnabel had not played a Harpsichord in the first place?" The answer is that he certainly understood the music in an almost HIP sense, and was of course a master pianist, who also understood very well what the piano could do when under complete control - dynamically speaking.
Thus he played the piano as a harpsichord with a flat dynamic on each individual note. More effective than you might think. But also a complete negation of the piano as an instrument ...
Ironically Schnabel makes the best of cases for using a harpsichord for Bach in the first place.
It is nice discussion, and no put downs intended, but the truth of Bach's music will always be found when played by great artists on the instruments intended. This does not mean that the piano played in Bach cannot be satisfying, but the more satisfying, then the less is exploited is the unique quality of the piano compared with the harpsichord.
Best wishes from George
An example of flat dynamics on the piano. Chromatic Fantasy and Fugue played by Schnabel:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDvm1fqmecw
Fantasy and Bridge -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dR3-dkrNF3U
And Fugue -
And here played by Walcha on a harpsichord with surprisingly similar results:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UsOrlGoeQY
Complete -
George,
I'm still a little confused here; maybe you can clear things up for me...
Why would virtually every world class pianist, since at least the 1950's, bother to perform/record any of Bach's output for keyboard, if the piano is so woefully inadequate at conveying the musical subtleties you deem so essential? After all, you must admit that they possess both abilities and musical understanding at least equal to that of yours.
Should they not just throw their hands upward and admit that they are playing the wrong instrument?
BBM
The reason why pianists play Bach's music on the piano rather than the instrument it was written for is because they play the piano for a living and yet cannot ignore the music. That does not make the piano the right instrument, for the reasons that I have outlined.
No confusion should arrise from this.
Some pianists have the ability to transcend the issue such that result is fairly worthwhile. Nicholeaeva, Schnabel, Fischer, and some others. Not one of them comes close to improving on what is achieved by artists of similar standing who specialise in playing the harpsichord, as my examples earlier show.
I can show an example for every great pianistic performance of a more satisfactory one by another great artist, where the correct instrument is used.
This is analogous to using steel strings on a violin for Bach compared to gut. One gets the composer's intended expression when the intended arrangement and instrument is employed, while the other can only come reasonably close. For Bach, the piano is a profound handicap at best, and is usually simply ruinous to the music. Not to say that on very rare occasions this handicap is not at least nearly surmounted.
To use the wrong equipment is simply perverse ...
Failure to comprehend this is simply a distortion of what was meant in the music itself.
No harpsichord player would try to perform Debussy, Chopin or Beethoven on the harpsichord, and no pianist - nowadays at least - should play Bach's harpsichord music on the piano.
One can understand why Schnabel or Fischer used the piano at a time when the harpsichord was not in widespread use before the mid-20th Century, but once the harpsichord became re-assimulated, then playing Bach on the piano is no more advisable than performing the Brandenburg Concertos on a 90 piece symphony orchestra. Of course it is possible, but it also clearly completely a distortion of the music. To say otherwise - and to continue to perform it thus - is misguided.
Nowadays, fortunately for the orchestral music of Bach, few would employ a large symphony orchestra for the suites and concerti of Bach, though the practice of playing Bach's harpsichord music continues on the piano. It is an archaic practice that by now is becoming a wilful perversion given the production of really fine harpsichords once more.
ATB from George
George,
.....
Should they not just throw their hands upward and admit that they are playing the wrong instrument?
BBM
Absolutely. These pianists should learn the different technique required for playing the harpsichord and play the music properly ... rather than traduce it from the first note to the last.
ATB from George
I find differently.
The pianoforte is perfect for Beethoven, Brahms and Debussy, but for Bach I find it to be sacrine - a false sweetness that dimishes the strength of the music. Weakens it and rots the ear.
ATB from George
Dear George,
I have to admit I do like your wit and sense of humour. For reasons I cannot quite understand yet this statement made me laugh out loud. Of course I share a different opinion on this but you certainly have a way with words 
Doug
George,
Thanks for the candid replies. I haven't laughed this hard for quite some time. Thanks again!
BBM
Pleased that I can still succeed in acting the joker in words!
ATB from George
Regards,
EJ
Thanks for the great tip EJS. I read some reviews online, and this will be my very next purchase.
BBM
EJ!
Welcome back!
EJ
BBM,
An exquisite performance. The equal footing of both instruments and Gould's assertive 'quirky' style of playing are much appreciated. The disc arrived yesterday and so far was played twice.
As for preference of instruments, I like them both. For me, the harpsichord is like a Lean Cuisine while the piano comes across more like a pizza with all its toppings. The question is what you have a taste for? I am glad to have both versions.
EJS,
Good to see you back.
Haim