The future of motoring?

I would have a Model S with a range extender. My business trips tend to be long. Even if the car stands still for hours at my destination, I haven't yet come across a venue who will give me a recharge facility, so that I can get home.

Right now it would have to be something like an i8 or Panamera Hybrid  for me but they are too expensive.  We might at some stage buy an i3 EV for local trips, which we do plenty of and can be easily interspersed with charging. We already have external 13A sockets on the house.

This kind of technology is certainly going to be the future of my motoring.  I might have one more go in a V8 before I switch. In fact I probably will. As far as my children and grandchildren are concerned, fuel cell technology will more likely be the way forward.  I've heard (although I don't think it can be definitively proved) that for the cost of the war in the Middle East, the USA could have had a coast to coast hydrogen network built twice. If this is even 25% true, it is telling.

My motoring tends to be longer distances (except the commute to work) so 400km is completely inadequate. eg Vernon to Canmore is more like 600km including detours.

Refuelling is the other issuue. With petrol it takes five minutes and i'm on my way again. Only when a "re-charge" can be accomplished in this sort of time-scale would I be interested in an electric car.

However, Mercedes have their hybrids. So does the railnetwork in part of the UK, or will have shortly on the Great Western routes. If cars were supplied at the right capital cost with the facility for the batteries to be charged from either the ICE whilst on the move, or the nuclear-powered mains and if they have similar performance to current ICE vehicles, then I might consider adopting this new technology.

Both my Mercs in the UK are quiet inside. Even I have to look at the rev-counter sometimes to convince myself that the engine is running after turning the ignition ! And at 70mph I can still enjoy the quiet passage in Hayden's symphony just before the "Surprise" that makes the ladies jump !

In no particluar order.....

Sorry for your circumstances that require so much driving.

If my motoring patterns required an ICE "range extender", making the car effectively a plug-in hybrid, I wouldn't bother. It's not here yet in any meaningful way, but battery swap technology has the potential to eliminate the range issues. Tesla do a demo on their website where a Model S receeive two battery swaps in the time it takes to refuel a regular car.

Our office block has two charging points in the parkade. There is a Tesla that parks at one of them every day. There are charging spots at all major hotels and many other places through the city. Tesla has a "Supercharger" at Squamish, to enable the Whilster trip to be made from the US west coast. Earlier this year, I saw a Tesla roadster being charged at a public charger in Merritt. Don, you'll understand why I thought that to be significant/odd - if there are car chargers in Merritt of all places, something is going on. It's coming. I think this time it is for real, and to answer the OP, yes, likely to be the future of motoring, in my view.

Agreed that modern luxury cars are "quiet enough". BMW now have to add artificial engine noise through the stereo.

Hydrogen networks and fuel cell cars seem a step to far for me. It is all or nothing with H2. For electric cars, recharge capability is an incremental add-on to an existing energy network. H2 has zero such existing network, and H2 cars are useless until one is built. Toyota are betting on the H2 pony, though. That's a big bet.

If you came to our office, you could plug in. Same at any major hotel in Vancouver.

The Mitsubishi Outlander plug-in is a lot of car for hardly any company car tax. Not much to look at, though.

Keith

We are well behind in the UK. The infrastructure needs to mushroom and prices need to come down a lot. The cost of an EV versus a diesel of similar size gives a difference that would buy an awful lot of fuel. Not that I would personally run a diesel.

You've got that straight. Hit with the ugly stick, and hard.

Yes, a Tesla isn't a sound financial decision at all. But it is trendy enough amongst the well-heeled that the whole thing is getting a foothold. I think the economies will follow. The success of Tesla is due, in part, to the segment they targeted. They made the vehicles a premium status symbol, and those with the cash care less about the price. It is conspicuous consumption, but with "green" overtone that actually enhances the effect....

"I'm not only stinking rich, but I'm doing my bit for the planet. I'm better than you in every way". 

Yes. And it's turning out to be a clever angle - so far. Good luck to them. If I could get a minimum guaranteed range of 450 miles I'd be interested, but not in buying new.

in other words...........a true gent........

You might have guessed that I am not an early adopter of new technology ! That's also a significant factor for not yet having placed an order for a Statement (or a Mu-so)

I've always felt that battery/electric cars are merely an interim stage before we get the hydrogen fuel cell vehicle.  It seems Toyota agree with me.  There are two main reasons why electric cars don't appeal - range is one but the other is the fact that they all contain very expensive batteries that will eventually wear out.  I grumble when I have to replace a £100 laptop battery every few years so I know I will never want to buy a car where the battery replacement cost is £10 000 or more.

Wikipedia article re: hydrogen fuel cell posted below:

Many automobile companies are currently researching the feasibility of commercially producing hydrogen cars, and some have introduced demonstration models in limited numbers (see list of fuel cell vehicles).^[11] At the 2012 World Hydrogen Energy Conference, Daimler AG, Honda, Hyundai and Toyota all confirmed plans to produce hydrogen fuel cell vehicles for sale by 2015.^[12] General Motors said it had not abandoned fuel-cell technology and still plans to introduce hydrogen vehicles like the GM HydroGen4 to retail customers by 2015. Charles Freese, GM’s executive director of global powertrain engineering, stated that the company believes that both fuel-cell vehicles and battery electric vehicles are needed for reduction of greenhouse gases and reliance on oil.^[13]

In December 2012 Toyota announced its plans to limit its all-electric car development and instead concentrate on the development and launch of a fuel cell vehicle by 2015.^[14] In October 2013 Toyota announced it had reduced the cost of the fuel cell system in its next hydrogen-powered car by almost US$1 million and expects to introduce a hydrogen mid-size sedan at a price of less than US$100,000 by 2015.^[15] Toyota plans to launch its first production fuel cell vehicle, the Toyota FCV, in 2015. The car is expected to have a range of 430 mi (690 km) and to take about three minutes to refill its hydrogen tank. It is expected to be available first in Japan, and then in California, mainly the Los Angeles area, due to the availability there of hydrogen fueling stations. The expected cost in Japan is about 7 million yen ($69,000).^[16]

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The Chevrolet Sequel is a purpose-built hydrogen fuel cell-powered concept SUV vehicle developed by General Motors

In 2009, Nissan started testing a new FC vehicle in Japan.^[17] Daimler has introduced its B-class demonstration FC vehicle.^[12] In 2011, Hyundai introduced its Blue² ("Blue Square") fuel cell electric vehicle (FCEV), and stated that it plans to have FCEVs available for sale by 2014.^[18] Honda stated in 2009 that it could start mass-producing vehicles based on its FCX Clarity concept car by the year 2020^[19] and in 2009 stated that it saw hydrogen fuel cells as "a better long term bet than batteries and plug-in vehicles".^[20] In December 2010, however, it introduced the Honda Fit EV, an all-electric car version of the gasoline-powered Fit, using elements of its hydrogen engine design, stating that the "industry trend seems to be focused on the battery electric vehicle".^[21]

What he said.

Unless the battery swap idea at 'refuelling' can be made practical. Which it won't because almost every company will want to use batteries, systems, techniques etc. to their own technical specs. Unless it can come down to something akin to flipping out a couple of AA's, it won't become the norm I suspect.

Capital cost is crucial. Unless the vehicle is available at <£10k they won't catch on.

Unless a vehicle can be refueled in less than 5 minutes, it won't catch on.

Unless a major component (engine, battery etc) can be replaced at a sensible price, it won't catch on.

The environment doesn't get a look-in.

Some observations on the Tesla:

People talk about the range, and they rave about the performance.  What is not talked about is that if you want to get the 275 miles advertised range, you have to drive it like a Yugo.  And if you engage it in its performance characteristics, you will not get anywhere near that range.

It is almost akin to a Ferrari that can only be re-fueled by filling the tank with a coffee cup.  As Winky indicates there are some applications where it is practical, but for many driving situations it is not...certainly not for any kind of a long trip.  ("Long" more than 300 miles, which isn't even that long.)

But that aside, my only real gripe (here in the USA) is that with a vehicle that is base priced on its lowest model at $60,000 (and goes up to $100,000+ I am told) - the US government is giving purchasers tax money for buying them.  If you can afford $60,000 or more for a car, then you don't need any of my tax money to pay for it.

If I don't want them breathing clean air, NOW seems to be as good a time as any to bring them into to the world.

Hopefully, by the time my grandchildren grow up, the problems I highlighted above will have been overcome.

Should car bodies be made of plastics or metal. Should dashboards be made of wood, plastics or metal. And should the upholstery be made of cloth, leather or plastics. Or do we need to produce new, more environmentally-friendly materials for these parts ?

Any thoughts ?

They are catching on around here. The range thing is not an issue for 99% of motoring. True, it won't suit some people but for us, the range of even existing EVs is more than adequate. Our car spends nearly every night at home, and is rarely driven more than 200km in a day. It will be a little inconvenient to have to rent an oil-burner for long trips, but that would only be an issue once or twice a year. We really don't drive long distances, nor do we want to.

Not so sure. The benefits of standard battery configuration may be enough to get adequate co-operation. That BMW and Mercedes are in discussions with Tesla for the supply of batteries might be a clue.

Of course, the standard needs to be such that innovation (improved weight, cost, capacity, recharge time and power output) can still occur within the agreed physical and electrical interface parameters.

As the EV market grows the benefits of standardisation reduce as a fragmented standard still offers economies of scale. It probably isn't that much more expensive to build a battery charging/swap station to deal with 3 or 4 types than it is to build one to cope with a single type.

Could then be a Victim of own success and continuing technological development. Batteries get smaller/more efficient/ changed specs and refuelling stations need to keep new/newer/old/older/oldest batteries and even if there turn out to be just 2 or 3 'standards' ( a la vhs/betamax/v2000), that's just not practical. Plus early adopters of each generation feel shafted 'cos they can't sell on their 50k last gen antique.

Just look at music formats over the last 30 years, whether physical or digits and the take up rates (or lack of) for them. If people are unwilling to front up a few quid for a music player they don't believe has staying power, then they're unlikely to plonk a fat wedge on a new car.

What's needed is a standard 'fuel' that people believe will be the standard for decades ahead which can refuel your vehicle in 5 minutes. And that's just private users. Imagine the demands of commercial haulage etc.

Cars ? or children/grandchildren ?

I'm not objecting to electric vehicles and I don't begrudge people paying £100k for one, providing i'm not subsidising it somehow. Also, i'd like to be reassured that the fuel is taxed at a similar level to petrol.

Most weeks in the UK I drive down to Wales or up to the Peak District on my days off to go fell walking. Typical 400 mile round trip at a decent speed and no place to re-charge when parked roadside in the Brecons or Snake Pass. So its still oil-based derivitives for me for a while.

Yes they're catching on , but as Range Extenders or Plug-in Hybrids. Pure Electric has too many drawbacks.

The most popular company car in our carpark, in recent months, is the Mitsubishi Outlander  because the tax is so low. The petrol engine cuts in when the electricity runs out. It gets expensive if you go a long way without plugging in, but it's very cheap if your company pays for your fuel because the tax is calculated on the CO2grams/km.

Keith

I find it sad that you live so far from where you like to be. A 400 mile round trip in a car each weekend would suck my soul out.

If these vehicles are the answer then it was a bloody stupid question.