Naim's uPnP server software on a NAS

Posted by: nudgerwilliams on 17 November 2014

Thought I would throw this out there to see what people think, and whether it will prompt a response from TJ or Phil

To have a robust uPnP streaming music system I think we would all agree you need 3 things working well - a streamer / renderer, a uPnP server, and a network (I'll gloss over the control point as there is plenty of comment already on Naim's contribution in that area). Most of the issues people are having are with the server or the network.

In Naim land the streamer is the easy bit to get working well. You can also get a uPnP solution, but only by spending £2k plus.

I think it would make sense for Naim to offer their uPnP software in a NAS-ready version. Advantages that I can see are:

1. It will help their customers get up a running reliably, which particularly with Mu-so should help them shift more product.

2. It means most of their customers can run Naim in 2 out of three bits of the chain, which should help them develop robust solutions with more functionality

3. It gives a reference solution to help with debugging. Even if customers wanted to run, say, Asset as their uPnP server they could have the Naim one installed also to help diagnose where problems are.

4. It will make it easier for the dealers to offer customers complete systems.

A couple of obvious disadvantages are:

1. They might lose out on a few £2k+ server sales - though I suspect if you see the value in a Naim server you would get one anyway

2. Their developers will have to spend time supporting and developing this vs other things which end users might value more.

I am extremely happy with my uPnP-based sytem (UnitiServe, SuperUniti, 2xQutes, fully wired network) but it has taken a fair bit of time and money to get it working as it should do, and I think if uPnP streaming really is "the future of hifi" it needs to be much easier to get a system up and running reliably.

Posted on: 19 November 2014 by james n

Originally Posted by Mike-B:

That said I helped someone set up his 3 room Sonos, it was impressively simple & to me was really true UPnP.

Quite - i've been playing with computer audio in various forms for over 7 years now and have never come across something quite so simple (and foolproof) to set up as the Sonos system.

Posted on: 19 November 2014 by Huge

Bill,

Totally right, and people still buy (or more often steal!) 128bps MP3s.

However, even those who don't a feeling of achievement out of overcoming the difficulties on their own, there is plenty of advice here on how to get around the problems, either running a Mac Mini and a DAC via async USB or S/PDIF or streaming via a NAS connected through a switch. Both are reliable solutions.

Posted on: 19 November 2014 by Huge

Originally Posted by KitH:

Streaming is going to finish off high end hi-fi. The approach the hi-fi industry has taken to streaming has created an unintended narrowing of their potential market. Basically, you're on your own. Technical knowledge is required to set up a network to provide on-demand file playing. ...

Not with Naim systems. Naim dealers are normally very knowledgeable.

If you buy a Naim system the dealer will normally offer installation (for a small(ish) fee). For high end Naim systems, this is normally included in the price. Tour choice if you take it up or not.

Posted on: 19 November 2014 by Big Bill

Originally Posted by Huge:

Bill,

Totally right, and people still buy (or more often steal!) 128bps MP3s.

Trouble is that small problems can upset the Apple cart. I have never had any real network problems, especially now everything is hard-wired. My problems have all been with the software. As KitH said much of the software we use is 'Cottage Industry' and that's where I have had problems.

On the server side I first used Twonky and that was not a brilliant experience but I got my head around it and actually worked out how to change the Navigation tree. But then what happens? The next version of Twonky changes so that you can now no longer change the Navigation tree. Luvly Jubbly NOT.

I eventually settled on MinimServer, which is great, but is not easy for the novice and it helps if you have a bit of Linux knowledge. But for me I have a need to be able to tailor the navigation tree and minimserver is the best at this, of the ones I have seen.

Then there is (or was) nStream which caused users a fair amount of problems - why should the option of emptying the cache be so familiar to us. But its replacement causes the average user even more hassle, just look at some of the threads.

I admit that streaming is convenient when you are having a listening session - no hassle finding what you want to listen to and you don't even have to get out of your chair! An LP only system on the other hand, has a setup which is basically universal, that is cartridge alignment and related issues and is something you learn with time and it doesn't change and does not require you to learn various technologies. You have to say that it is a lot less faffing around than streaming! Less convenient to use though.

And that is without considering things like hard disks dying etc.

Posted on: 19 November 2014 by DavidDever

Originally Posted by AllenB:

I firmly believe that Naim are so missing the trick that Sonos implements so well. That is the creation of a sub-net that 'ring-fences' all the hardware connectivity used by the sources and control points. AFAIK sub-nets are not patented or proprietary, most medium to large business networks will employ sub-nets in one form or the other.

A reliable and rock steady network with machines and software talking to each other inside a sub-net 'ring' that want that inter-connectivity with each other, without dropping out or searching for that one little setting that somehow has gone awry. It seems so obvious. One little box from Naim (call it the 'Naim Bridge' ) and this could solve so many of the repeated fails seen on the forum where people cannot get their network to communicate.

Back in the day, I had always suggested to retailers that a nested network would be the best option - a simple AirPort Extreme (WAN connected to home network, LAN connected to an Ethernet switch) would work fine. Put all of your UPnP streaming devices inside the network, and you're good to go.

Human nature being what it is, there is always a "better" option, but simplicity trumps confusion most days of the week.

Posted on: 19 November 2014 by 40 below

I completely agree with Olly, that an optimised switch for audio installation should be part of the product line. I have seen the differences across models, ethernet cabling, linear power supply and even where it is on the power distribution stack.

Naim could take an OEM base, replace SMPS with linear PSUs, and add proper noise filtering. Ideally include a wireless capability to outboard that from the streamer. A true digital music hub. If it provides a benefit at an appropriate price there is a market. Look at the benefit a NAPSC, Hicap or Hiline brings to a base system, and the levels of investment some forum members are making in expensive ethernet cables etc.

I suspect the Streaming board used within Nds / Ndx would form the base for a perfect standalone "digital music hub" and could also host a UPnP server function a la Unitiserve. Naim are half-way there with "multi-room" relay redistributing lo-def.

Rather like a Naim version of a Sonos Bridge that does more - UnitiBridge? And they seem to have the base capabilities, it's more a question of having a clear Product focus and re-integrating the solution.

Posted on: 19 November 2014 by Simon-in-Suffolk

Interesting idea, however werent Naim once in this space with NaimNet, and have they not since moved on? I can only assume it was not sufficiently profitable or they were unable to appriately invest in the resources to make it worth while and keep competitive.

Simon

Posted on: 19 November 2014 by 40 below

I see the archilles heal of strraming, as the sensitivity to 3rd-party factors such as the ethernet infrastructure and server. If Naim's streamers can't consistently achieve design performance in domestic installations then they will loose market to more noise-immune and plug-and-play solutions.

IMO Naimnet and Unitiserve were first-generation solutions for which Naim should be admired. However the 'end-to-end' problems are much clearer now, and a more targetted solution is required around the critical gaps.

Posted on: 19 November 2014 by Hungry_Otter

Originally Posted by Bananahead:

Originally Posted by Hungry_Otter:

Please forgive a streamer & Naim novice, but I have a question that seems relevant to this particular stream. I have a UQ2, a Seagate NAS and a Mac Air and am trying to get a decent organisation of my music. Tried Asset, but their Mac version doesn't seem to work (and the interface is not intuitive in any case), have been banging my head against a wall with Plex now for a week or so. Great interface but it has this annoying habit of listing multiple copies of all albums, there are some albums it refuses to play, and the alphabetical directory works not at all. I guess that I am after alternatives or ways to fix Plex. Many thanks in advance.

Don't Seagate provide their own Media Server? Does this work?

Have you tried asking on the Plex forum?

Thanks. yes, Seagate do supply a server but it seems unsophisticated relative to the (potential of) Plex. As suggested, I'll try their forum

Posted on: 19 November 2014 by Hungry_Otter

I am not totally technically inept, although I don't take a great interest in the finer points of the issues being raised here. I do, however, find it incredible that one can buy a piece of equipment meant to play music, but which won't unless you provide an installer or have reasonable background knowledge of the broader context in which the equipment is meant to work. No wonder people buy Sonos. It's remarkable that any company would rely on a user forum to solve what appear to be regular problems - why not a detailed technical manual provide by Naim? In its absence, I am thankful for the discussions here, even if the technical details (not to mention abbreviations) often mean little to me.

Originally Posted by AllenB:

The OP is not far off the mark, but David Dever's suggestion is far closer to the solution I imagine. A NAS is for storage, although modern day versions are really a small computer in their own right. Nevertheless, I still see them as a depository for storing one's media, be it music, video, photos, etc.

I have never really had any network issues throughout my streaming journey, but the number of issues that seem to resurface on the forum suggests there must be a better way, ok maybe not better, perhaps simpler. Without doubt Sonos have simplified this, but Simon is right, they set up a network mesh wirelessly using only one unit that is connected physically to the network via the router. This wireless sub-net is separated from your usual wireless network in the home so that their units are ring-fenced. However, their systems are supposedly capable of lossless streaming, but not hi-def, as Simon said. This is a limitation of the wireless capability, but this has improved enormously with ac networks. Maybe, still not quite enough to stream hi-def whilst other bandwidth is used in a typical household. But maybe there is another way .....

I am neither a software or networking engineer, so bear with me if I am missing technicalities, I am just trying to think laterally. Looking at the broader picture involving beta testing firmware and apps and wondering where this may take us in our lifetimes (hopefully!!) and I see limitations, not insurmountable ones, but really things that may need more radical redesigns or paths to get out of the UPnP shackles that Naim seem to have entrenched themselves in. I don't even own Sonos, but I know enough to see many things they have built on top of basic UPnP that Naim are not even close to emulating thus far. Do I want Sonos, no I want Naim, but I do want more of Sonos usability and connectivity in the broader sense. Naimnet is all but dead, and Netstreams still forms the basis of the Naim servers. I am not knocking Naim servers, I have owned one or the other since the early days, and they do provide a reliable UPnP platform (although the frequency that the US crops up with issues drags this reputation down constantly), but it is entrenched in proprietary licenses and databasing that doesn't translate so well to the wider streaming world that we are heading into. It is but one part of a jigsaw.

So what is the aim? Well it seems we all want to stream from various places, but the high quality streaming sources are still few and far between. This may change soon, with various sites coming to the fore (note Spotify is not one of these, but they may have to change to compete), not least of all, I am pretty sure that once Apple fully integrates Beats into the iTunes scene, then we may at last have lossless streaming in a big way. As a couple have intimated here, this may be the end of buy-to-download and store, and we turn to subscribe-to-stream lossless quality to hi-fi systems. However, when this happens, it will not rely on wired networks, it just can't for the audience it will want to capture and the way they will want to use it, i.e. wirelessly. But as I have said, ac wireless networks seem eminently capable already of streaming lossless, just not hi-def as yet. So it's almost there, it needs one big player to kick it off, don't bet against Apple / Beats.

Naim, being high end audio will not want to exclude hi-def, nor would anyone of us want them to. So David's basics of an AE getting WAN but linking to LAN via a switch is close to the 'Bridge' I mentioned. What if this Naim Bridge could connect all your devices using a wired connection, so in itself it becomes a switch, but it sets up it's own subnet to ring fence this collection of streamers. Currently our network cables will collect close to the router or switch currently, so those currently hooked up to streamers and music servers could easily be plugged into the new bridge. Of course this could set up a separate wireless SSID as well to stay within that sub-net for any units that cannot be wired. This box could then connect to the wider LAN of the household via the usual router / switch where all the non-ring-fenced equipment derive their network connection in the normal fashion. This, of course provides the ultimate broadband connection to WAN / internet.

Not only would you have the potential for a rock-solid network for all music up to hi-def, but you can then introduce streaming sources via the controlling software. Such a box could have on-board dynamic memory that is capable of storing caches to your heart's delight, a central database and index for not only locally stored music libraries, but also a database of streamed sources and music favourites or playlists within them. This could potentially allow mixing up of music from different sources, which may become important if we move towards subscribe-to-stream as our main source of music. Thus, the box is more than a switch, but less than a NAS, similar to a secondary router, but with enough computing power to manage a database. I wonder if something like this is possible?

All controlled from our iDevices and Android apps.

Posted on: 19 November 2014 by Bart

Originally Posted by Hungry_Otter:

Why not a detailed technical manual provide by Naim?

How shall Naim prepare a technical manual that accounts for every combination and permutation of home router, switch, server software package and NAS? For both wired ethernet and wifi? This is precisely the problem that in theory could be eliminated if there were a 'Naim Bridge' solution. In theory.

Posted on: 19 November 2014 by Bananahead

Originally Posted by Hungry_Otter:

Sonos.

Have you looked at the Sonos forum?

Posted on: 19 November 2014 by Simon-in-Suffolk

I feel looking at the network is not the right way of bettering this.. Its funny and somewhat depressing in my professional life how so many expect the network to resolve all without looking at the bigger picture..

As said home networks vary hugely in quality, conformity and ability.. Therefore a reliable solution needs to isolate the user from this.

Media control solutions like Airplay and UPnP DLNA require a reasonably robust platform to build on. Without that you struggle, and some threads on this forum support that.

Therefore I would recommend a bespoke solution using Naim specific media server and control software. This would sit on a UnitiServe 2, PC or MAC. There would be a TCP communicated client, probably on iOS or Android, acting act as a control client to this server, and the server would drive the renderer using web service type posts. Clearly there are large elements of UPnP you can reuse or customise , but you are tightening up and making more robust the data transport for media and control..... As this appears where many issues lie.

Although the above should improve reliability and more predictable user expierience, the downside, is that you are creating a closed system, and inevitably a server that won't run on most home NAS's, but this could be part of the current issue.

But perhaps the horse has already bolted on this. But despite what I have said, I must be unusual, as apart from occasional NDX crash, my streaming network, server etc is rock solid and has in the last 4 to 5 years never failed. I would have to say streaming has been more reliable for me than CDP with occasional slipping pucks and skipping discs

Simon

Posted on: 20 November 2014 by Hook

Originally Posted by Simon-in-Suffolk:

...

But despite what I have said, I must be unusual, as apart from occasional NDX crash, my streaming network, server etc is rock solid and has in the last 4 to 5 years never failed. I would have to say streaming has been more reliable for me than CDP with occasional slipping pucks and skipping discs

Simon

I don't think it's unusual at all. Your and my experiences are similar, and I am convinced that the vast majority of us playing music on home networks are running smoothly with no (or only minor) problems. But that does not make for interesting reading, so it is never (or only rarely) posted.

Streaming using UPNP these last 4 years has been much more reliable for me than my previous PC/Dac and CD-based setups.

Like I said, yawn...

Hook

Posted on: 20 November 2014 by Big Bill

Originally Posted by Simon-in-Suffolk:

Simon

Supporting this stuff is expensive, it's very expensive. Our partnership, as a software house, has to provide support for the stuff we write and we charge for it. So who would like to sign up for a support contract to NAIM?

David Dever is right. As a matter of course from day one I connected my NAIM kit to my home via a switch and I haven't had many problems at all. I had a wifi problem (not with my NAIM stuff that is wired) and I kept dropping the internet, which again does not affect my NAIM kit. This was all sorted, though, when I junked my BT HH2.

The only issues I have recently is with the nStream replacement. btw what is that now called?

@Allend Yes Sonos will only stream 16bit Audio but that is not because it is wireless, it's because Sonos don't do 24bit. Fiddling about with my UnitLite I have been able to stream FLAC 24/96 with no problems, although when I stop fiddling I go back to wired. Perhaps that is the route problem you can't help fiddling and faffing around with the kit.

Yes subscription services do seem to be the future!

Posted on: 20 November 2014 by endlessnessism

The trouble with trying to create your own protocol for something like serving and streaming music is that, no matter how good your protocol may be, unless it catches-on and becomes popular it's as good as dead. It's the old VHS v Betamax scenario.

NaimNet was a great concept but it's a dead and I can't think why Naim would want to go down that path again. The even tried to hedge their bets by partnering with NetStreams and, hopefully, piggy-backing on the whole home automation craze but that too proved to be a dead end, at least the way NetStreams were doing it and at least in Europe. I initially signed-up for NaimNet myself but eventually baulked at the cost and complication of all that bespoke cabling, installation and programming, and even then it wouldn't play hi-def. Having ripped all my music on an HDX, I then found it a pain in the proverbial to have to re-tag all the files so that I could see them organised and listed correctly on anything other than the HDX (I have just sold it but had already switched to using dBPoweramp for ripping).

People want what NaimNet and NetStreams had to offer but without the cost and complication, and in a DIY package. That kind of home automation is coming, too, and the likes of Google and Microsoft are pouring millions into the way it will be controlled. It will only be controllable by the the likes of Google and Microsoft if there are standard protocols built into the products being controlled, and (for better or worse, VHS or Betamax) the protocol will be the one promoted by whoever wiins the market-share battle. It may not be the best protocol but ignore it at your peril.

Actually I expect it all to pan-out pretty well. Some things will be less good than they could have been but everything will be better on the whole. If you're irritated by today's problems in your home network, music servers, etc, try going back to your set-up ten or even five years ago.

For my money, Sonos has a lot that's worth emulating, and it has certainly got market share (like Blackberry a few years back) but Sonos too could become yesterday's technology if (like Blackberry) it finds itself so locked-in to its own proprietary, music-only, technology that it can't adapt quickly enough to whatever new solutions are being developed by the likes of Google and Microsoft (and others still over the horizon whom we haven't seen yet).

If I were Naim, I wouldn't want to do it all myself but rather make sure that I was developing my own area of expertise in a way that was compatible with whatever networking, automation and control solutions others were developing or were visible over the horizon. What they do best is convert signal to sound and, as far as the signal is concerned, they should simply ensure that they can get it from wherever and in whichever way it comes, and that they can be controlled in whicever way controlling is being done.

Naim do a pretty good job at this already but there are nevertheless things that they can and should be doing.

A dedicated, stand-alone streamer, like a Sonos Connect but with Naim quality. I don't understand why they have always promoted the dedicated box approach but you can't get a streamer without at least a DAC in it.

IP control for everything, from streamers to DACs to amps, so that all your Naim kit can be controlled over the home network rather than having to point an IR remote at each box. This is currently only available in a limited way with the streamers.

And if any of the above requires a bridge or a server, of if Naim think they build one in a way that results in better sound, base it on standard protocols that are compatible with everything else and won't live or die according to how successful Naim alone, or Naim plus one other, may be in promoting it.

In other words, Naim should be aiming at a consumer-friendly version of NaimNet (or a Naim-quality version of Sonos), with a simple control app that integrates whatever Naim kit you may have and allows you to select what you want to hear, choose the rooms where you want to hear it and adjust the volume in each; and which can also be accessed by whatever uber-control system the likes of Google and Microsoft may be developing.

Posted on: 20 November 2014 by Big Bill

Originally Posted by endlessnessism:

NAIM are doing that already!

Posted on: 20 November 2014 by endlessnessism

There's no IP control of, say, a Nait XS or a 282 if it's not part of a system with a streamer. Maybe that ceases to be a problem if everything goes the way of streaming, in which case do we end-up with no volume control in a Nait XS or a 282? Or no volume control in the streamer and IP volume control of the Nait XS or 282?

Posted on: 20 November 2014 by nickpeacock

What the thread shows of course is that Sonos pretty much sets the benchmark in GUI and ease of set up. It's not perfect but anyone who's tried it will, I suspect, agree.

Posted on: 20 November 2014 by Huge

Originally Posted by AllenB:

Look, there is no doubt that UPnP can be very reliable for streaming HQ from a NAS or computer server, but I have become very tired of the argument that 'we can only show what the UPnP server presents to us' and all the limitations that brings with navigation, library trees, pinnickety metadata, etc.

Then use a computer feeding a DAC via async USB or S/PDIF.

Posted on: 20 November 2014 by Simon-in-Suffolk

Huge, I am not sure I, and I suspect a few others, would like a PC, linux box or Mac permanently stationed in my music room just for audio duties, it's kind of why I bought an NDX, and a Squeezebox before that. I like to keep it simple, quiet and immediate if I can.

Simon

Posted on: 20 November 2014 by Huge

Hi Simon, it was meant as a specific response to AllenB's issues, not as a general recommendation.

Although, due to space constraints, I have my main computer in the same room as my audio system, when listening it is almost always turned off.

Posted on: 20 November 2014 by Simon-in-Suffolk

Huge, ok I understand, thanks.

I do feel AllenB uncovers a point I share, metadata mapping on Naim UPnP solutions is stubbornly absent.

Given Naim are supporting interoperability with non Naim UPnP solutions, it does seem a pity than the controller, renderer mapping of metadata is not configurable. For classical music and compilations this can become irksome.

Simon

Posted on: 21 November 2014 by Big Bill

Originally Posted by endlessnessism:

But it is not in a limited way with the Uniti series or a Muso, so NAIM are showing what direction they are moving.

Posted on: 21 November 2014 by Big Bill

Originally Posted by AllenB:

Don't blame upnp for that, the standard says nothing about what the navigation tree looks like, just that you have to implement whatever it throws at you.

The only experience I have of Sonos is having heard some of the boxes, I have not set one up so I really shouldn't comment on technical details. But I would like to as a couple of comments:

(i) Does Sonos not uses upnp?

(ii) What does SONOS use to store its content?