Naim's uPnP server software on a NAS

Posted by: nudgerwilliams on 17 November 2014

Thought I would throw this out there to see what people think, and whether it will prompt a response from TJ or Phil

 

To have a robust uPnP streaming music system I think we would all agree you need 3 things working well - a streamer / renderer, a uPnP server, and a network (I'll gloss over the control point as there is plenty of comment already on Naim's contribution in that area).  Most of the issues people are having are with the server or the network.

 

In Naim land the streamer is the easy bit to get working well.  You can also get a uPnP solution, but only by spending £2k plus. 

 

I think it would make sense for Naim to offer their uPnP software in a NAS-ready version.  Advantages that I can see are:

 

1. It will help their customers get up a running reliably, which particularly with Mu-so should help them shift more product.

 

2. It means most of their customers can run Naim in 2 out of three bits of the chain, which should help them develop robust solutions with more functionality

 

3. It gives a reference solution to help with debugging.  Even if customers wanted to run, say, Asset as their uPnP server they could have the Naim one installed also to help diagnose where problems are.

 

4.  It will make it easier for the dealers to offer customers complete systems.

 

A couple of obvious disadvantages are:

 

1. They might lose out on a few £2k+ server sales - though I suspect if you see the value in a Naim server you would get one anyway

 

2. Their developers will have to spend time supporting and developing this vs other things which end users might value more.

 

I am extremely happy with my uPnP-based sytem (UnitiServe, SuperUniti, 2xQutes, fully wired network) but it has taken a fair bit of time and money to get it working as it should do, and I think if uPnP streaming really is "the future of hifi" it needs to be much easier to get a system up and running reliably.

 

 

 

Posted on: 21 November 2014 by endlessnessism

The other thing to mention in this context is multi-room.  Apologies to those who have suffered my postings on this subject before.

 

Naim streamers will play simultaneousely in multiple locations but only with compression in the secondary (slave) locations.  Sonos, by contrast, allows simultaneous playback in multiple locations without any compression, albeit that 16/44 is the best quality that can be achieved. 

 

What is needed to achieve multi-room with no compression in any location, all the way up to 24/192 and assuming wired connections?  Can it be achieved with a master / slave approach such as Sonos and Naim currently use (and, if so, why don't Naim do something about compression in the secondary locations) or does it require a (not currently available) Naim bridge or switch, like a consumer-friendly version of the NetStreams switch that was necessary for NaimNet?

 

I will not hesitate to buy Naim streamers when they overcome this limitation in multi-room playback and allow access to Qobuz. 

Posted on: 21 November 2014 by Big Bill
Originally Posted by AllenB:
Originally Posted by Big Bill:
Originally Posted by AllenB:

Look, there is no doubt that UPnP can be very reliable for streaming HQ from a NAS or computer server, but I have become very tired of the argument that 'we can only show what the UPnP server presents to us' and all the limitations that brings with navigation, library trees, pinnickety metadata, etc.

Don't blame upnp for that, the standard says nothing about what the navigation tree looks like, just that you have to implement whatever it throws at you.

The only experience I have of Sonos is having heard some of the boxes, I have not set one up so I really shouldn't comment on technical details. But I would like to as a couple of comments:

(i)  Does Sonos not uses upnp?

(ii) What does SONOS use to store its content?

Who's blaming UPnP, to the contrary I have said it's a reliable base. If i had to narrow it down to one word,  I am talking about indexing.

 

Where Sonos leads the way by a long margin is how to index what is on UPnP with what is being streamed out there, mix it up in whatever fashion you like and create a current playlist to listen to. The storing of the index is key to being able to do this and Sonos stores this index on the various units all synced together. Naim streamers, and most others, cannot do this (yet?) and must rely on what is 'presented' by the UPnP server resulting in clunky navigation of a static library. You cannot change the way you see the metadata on the fly, so sorting is what it is, what it is set to by the server. You cannot jump to any 'hyperlinks' because you have to step up and down the library tree.

 

For the record, I don't own Sonos either, but I have looked into it, both professionally and personally.

Sorry Allen I thought you were laying the fact that we have limited 'Navigation Trees' with most servers at the door of upnp.