NDX, nDAC and 555PS - Some Interesting Tests

After finding the problems at Test 3, why did you not restart the tests at the beginning. You have effectively said that the tests 1 & 2 are invalid due to the poor setup.

I'd also question the validity of Tests 5 & 6 due to the compromised earthing that comes with having multiple connections in place at one time.

HTH

John

ASenna04

Both you and Aysil have now reported relatively big differences, which IMV were not to be expected. So we all need to get to the bottom of this 

Allen

Allen,

You are correct. I need to do Test 1 to Test 3 again. I was planning to do that.

But since I have not done that, I cannot claim there is a big difference between the NDX and nDAC. There was a major improvement after I had sorted the cables after Test 3, but that was an improvement in my normal setup that was compromised because of the cables.

ASenna04

John,

Agree, need to do Test 1 to Test 3 again.

Your point about earting is interesting and could be a possible explanation. But I don't expect it to make the two signals in the 252 to sound exactly the same. I believe I have both on selected to be chasis and must not be right since from what I know only one should be on chasis. I will try with different settings and see if it makes a difference.

But surely you should be able to have multiple signals into the 252, it is designed to do that.

Thanks for your comments.

ASenna04

Ihau,

I agree that it may be difficult to listern to subtle differences in a Double Blind Test doing A/B comparisons. But the systems I was comparing in Test 5 and Test 6 were not subtle, an 555PS is not supposed to add a small difference. Most people have posted on this forums describing jaw dropping change in sound quality right from the first few secounds of playback when the 555PS is added.

ASenna04

In my system nDAC and nDAC/XPS sound as very different players and one does not need prolonged listening experience or double blind test to pick up the difference.

Just to add, when I A/Bed NDX with and without 555PS the difference was clear... actually very clear. Less so when the nDac alone was paired with the NDX.

My takeaway of this very interesting post is that adding a PS555, which costs something like 6K euros, is only capable to bring little improvement to a DAC or NDX, so little that just changing the cable dressing can make it even harmful...!!

Guys, the more I read these the more I think that balanced one/two box solutions are the best (see linn streamers), all these sophisticated cables and power supplies upgrades are a very good marketing tool to keep people hooked and willing to continuously look for the ultimate upgrade!

Buy once, buy good and then listen to music, not to gears....IMO of course.

Asenna04.

What you have said is really strange...

perhaps are the Ovator400 that are not to much a reveal speaker? ( i dunno these speakers)

252+250 is a beautiful system. I've the same with the Kharma 2.3 and, belive me, you can hear big differences with minor changes..

I'm agree that what you have to do is some long listening sessions.

and keep us posted.. I'd like to go for the NDX on day so your opinion is quite useful

Regards

BkkB

In my experience this kind of a/b testing is a bad approach. I have tried this a number of times with various pieces of kit and at best I have only ever found it confusing. When is it that music is most enjoyable? I find the times I gain the greatest pleasure and insight are when I am relaxed and in the right head space for the particular album I decide to throw on, even better... at a gig with a good bunch of people etc etc. Endlessly switching back of forth like this you are probably only going to apprehend superficial differences if at all. You may hear a change in presentation but in terms of discerning worthwhile musical improvements I find this approach generally hopeless and frustrating. The other point worth making is that any pieces of kit that are new will throw in a huge variable. I have on occasions even found second hand kit to be unpredictable for the first week. IMHO better to keep any comparisons simple and give your self a few days at least to decide whether you are gaining any greater enjoyment. I almost always find the answer becomes clear after a few days running. Other folks' experience may be different of course but my advice would be relax, give it time and you might be surprised how much a few drinks can help 

Perhaps try the nDac/555ps for a few days then siwtch the nDac out for the NDX... give that a few days and then put the whole lot together and see where you are at.  

Mattia, you have to listen for nDAC with and without XPS for yourself. The OP had some setup problems which took him to the wrong conclusions -- which he confirmed in later posts.

If you pay me a visit I can show what happens if you put Burndy on powercord

I always keep cable dressing in immaculate condition -- and this is very important, no matter either with or without external PS. I have large spacing between the shelves on two racks and a lot of space behind the rack. The grounding is very important so I use a proper power box for powerlines.

Adding XPS on nDAC is not subtle, it takes nDAC to the top-class source. I'm sure PS555 is more so. Naim is not unique in using external PS -- check MSB DAC for example which is regarded as one of the best sources on the market. Most of the top level gears with built-in PS had already built-in the high quality PS which is both BIG and COSTLY, takes >50% of the box and >50% of the price.

Building the gears with built-in smallish PS and then upgrade them with external PS is nothing more but the Naim commercial policy. Technically Naim can design all their gears without PS and suggest PS555 for all of them. You may guess this will shrink the Naim sales market by miles.

No - logically it just means that the small-case, small transformer DAC is better upgraded with the external power supply than is the large-case, large-transformer NDX.

I think Mr Senna has done us all a great service with his exhaustive test, one of the most honest I've ever read on a hifi forum. A breath of fresh air from the usual 'I bought a power supply because it should be better therefore it must be' hot air.

Now what did I do with that Supercap...

At the Bristol show naim was using a 555PS on the NDX and AFAIK they have done the same at other public outings. There’s a reason for this and I don’t think it’s to sell unnecessary PSUs, I think it’s to make the NDX sing.

I think this exercise highlights how hard it can be to conclusively test even one new component. In order to try out an NDX you have to disconnect, re-position and then reconnect cables, the act of which in itself can bring changes to the system not related to the NDX (see also Simon-from-Suffolk’s thread about burndy wiggling).

I get a bit confused though, was it the case that in trying to accommodate the NDX, the Burndy/HL was pushed out of optimum? Or was it the case that testing the NDX revealed a cable optimisation problem that had been present for a long time? I can’t see it being the former as you would surely have heard straight away that the familiar nDAC/555PS sound qualities had gone awry. So if it’s the latter then this exercise has given a brilliant free upgrade. Maybe the message is to strip everything back and re-assemble, paying particular attention to cable dressing, then just enjoy the ‘new’ optimised system as it is for a while.

Gav

AMA, my provocative post was only a cheap way to get invited at your place!! 

I know external PSs bring great improvement, I have an hicap on my SN and it is wonderful!

I'm just saying that many people, as myself probably, are happy to own nice gear and to listen music in a decent way, without caring too much about cable dressing, stack, speaker positioning and so on...for these kind of people, maybe one-box solutions (as linn) are probably more suitable.

On the other side, for audiophiles constantly looking for sound improvement, a one box solution is probably very frustrating!! come on, here we are talking about NDX+PS555+DAC+PS555, a 4 box solution (plus powerlines and DC1 and hiline), just for the source! 

Hi all,

Thanks for your responses. Unfortunately I have not had time to run the tests again, but there have been good feedback from your responses.

Let me clarify that I do believe the PSU made a big difference. That is what I experiencec when I added first the XPS to my CDX2 and then to nDAC and then the 555PS to nDAC. There was a big difference. That is why I was shocked with my findings in Test 5 and 6.

ihau & goat,

I take your view that doing an a/b test like this will not show the differences. What the tests made me think is if there are any big differences by adding PSUs or between the NDX and nDAC. Surely it should be easier to stop the differences between 2 pictures if you have them side by side rather then view one for a few minutes then put it down facing down and wait for a minute and then pick up the second picture. But I respect your view that there could be mind tricks when doing the test like that.

Salmon Dave,

Your point about the nDAC having a smaller PSU as an explanation is not valid since I could not hear the difference in both Test 5 and 6. If that was valid, then surely the NDX/555PS would sound better then nDAC on its own with a smaller PSU. I posted my findings as I found them to get views form other people and also to see if someone can replicate the a/b switching tests as I did and try and see if they can hear any difference.

AllenB,

Yes, I admit my findings are strange. That is why I think I should listern to the NDX/555PS for a while and get used to its sound and then swap to nDAC/555PS. And that is what I am doing. But at the back of my mind I still have that doubt that if this approach will show the small difference there is between the two. Because, for the reasons given above, the a/b switch should show the difference since there is no time delay (and hence memory) when you switch. Now you know why I am confused.

bukakabo,

I don't think there is anything wrong with S400s. They are very revealing speakers. They were all over the place (up and down) when warming up, but now they are great. The fixing of the Burndy issue has shown even more how great they are since that was causing a big compromise.

AMA,

Your quote:

"I always keep cable dressing in immaculate condition -- and this is very important, no matter either with or without external PS. I have large spacing between the shelves on two racks and a lot of space behind the rack. The grounding is very important so I use a proper power box for powerlines."

I agree that I did not realise the importance of cable dressing until these test pointed to the fact that the power through the Burndy into the nDAC was compromised. I plan to completely strip the system and build it up again giving special care to cable dressing. I do have very little space behind the Fraim and the power sockets are right at the back there. But I think I can improve. Are there any good tips somewhere on how to optimise cables? OK the power cables should be kept well away from signal and Burndy, but what about speaker cables and the conenction between the preamp and power amp? Exactly how far apart should they be? Does it compromise the sound alot if they touch the wall/Fraim/Carpet?

Gav,

Your quote:

"I get a bit confused though, was it the case that in trying to accommodate the NDX, the Burndy/HL was pushed out of optimum? Or was it the case that testing the NDX revealed a cable optimisation problem that had been present for a long time? I can’t see it being the former as you would surely have heard straight away that the familiar nDAC/555PS sound qualities had gone awry. So if it’s the latter then this exercise has given a brilliant free upgrade. Maybe the message is to strip everything back and re-assemble, paying particular attention to cable dressing, then just enjoy the ‘new’ optimised system as it is for a while."

Its was the latter. It was indeed a free upgrade. I have never heard the nDAC/555PS sounding this good. And here was me waiting for the S400 to warm up

All,

Please continue to post your findings and I would really appreciate if someone can do the a/b switching tests. I will keep you posted on my findings.

ASenna04

Hi, Mattia

Come in any time -- my system is always hot and wine is always cold 

The multiple-box source is not a big surprise in the world of no-compromise audio.

For example, dCS Scarlatii is 3 box solution (sans transport), GTE Trinity is 3-box solution -- and both of them need a streamer in front -- which is at minimum another box to count.

Or else you can buy a KDS and enjoy the single-box music 

There are loads of cable dressing tips. I certainly can't achieve optimum on all cables so I do the best I can. For example, one of my NAP300 burndys rests on the carpet, also one of the preamp-to-poweramp cables is resting very snuggly against the fraim - what can you do!

My experience so far tells me that the HiLine is the most critical. It has been purpose built with mechanical de-coupling features. Looking back, I have had all sorts of inconsistent sound issues that I now attribute to the HL. Make sure the plastic tail rings aren't bust and as a priority get the HL free hanging and work everything else around that.

Gav

My preamp-poweramp cable is coiled on the rack -- no idea how can this be improved.

The powerlines are uncoiled and travel away form each other and the interconnects.

They don't touch the ground and each other -- and lay on the rack.

The other cables fly in the air without touching rack, ground or each other.

Including Hiline (which is quite rigid BTW) .

Yes, it's possible. Needs time and diligence.

Might be the 'end of' my 25 year ownership of Naim if that's the general level of reply.

I appreciate PSU upgrades as much as the next person when they clearly work. My point was that someone had bothered to do an exhaustive test and come up with some surprising results - one of which appeared to be that the expected PSU hierarchy wasn't quite as expected. There've been a few instances when I've preferred bare units to those with PSUs, and many others have agreed with me. Doesn't mean it's a universal truth.

As I haven't heard the unit (like yourself), I'm keeping an open mind.

Actually Allen I think you should be able to make your points without being personal; does nothing to maintain the convivial feel of the forum.

M

Dear ASenna04,

Thank you for sharing your results with us.

Some of your findings are not surprising to me at all. In fact, I also don't hear any tremendous difference between NDX and nDAC. There is just a distinct difference in character which I want to describe in another post.

As to your method, like many other people replying to your post, I also don't believe that a/b switching is a good way to compare components. Especially for minor differences, it is not suitable because the brain adapts to changes very quickly back and forth and it starts to become confusing. Listen to full tracks at least. In fact, if a component is stimulating you to listen to the end of a track is a very important test criteria. Years ago, I had a difficulty with the speakers I had at that time, but I did not know why. It sounded almost perfect according to all the generic "hi-fi criteria"; but I had discovered I was never listening until the end of CDs any more since I had got those speakers. One day, I read one of the drivers had a resonant frequency which may induce listening fatigue by some people. This was reason enough to get rid of them right away. Apart from such technical issues related to fatigue, the criteria of tendency to listen to the end of track (or cd) is about how much a device is capable of mediating to you the "soul" of the music.

I tend to suspect if the main problem with your tests is your source components. None of the devices you are comparing are IMO source components, they are intermediaries. According to my ongoing experimentations, the source of digital data (in your case the memory stick) has a TREMENDOUS influence on SQ. This may be contrary to some common assumptions. I hope to finish preparing a comprehensive post on this topic until the end of this week. I suggest you to question if your memory stick or Squeezebox are capable of bringing about the full potential of the nDAC or NDX. This is just a question, not a judgement, but a valid question I think. You could, I believe, experiment more on that aspect instead.

PS.  When I look at your source components, I want to question why you need NDX? NDX is used to its full potential only when used as UPnP client. Is Squeezebox a UPnP server? I am not familiar with it, but I guess not. (Edit: oh, I forgot, of course, you must have a computer in your network, which is surely a server by itself. So, I take back this PS section.)

Asenna,

you need to be very careful doing a test like number 5 or 6.  Multiple earth references and the high likelihood of earth loops will basically cause a massive levelling of the playing field unless you are very careful - essentially making the sources sound very similar and below their potential.  To do this comparison in a more meaningful way - and thus avoiding the possibility of earth loops - you should only have on item connected into the pre-amp at any one time.  Try it again this way and see how you go.

Not surprised about your results once you had sorted the Burndy - getting this right - dressing, avoiding stressing etc.. makes a big difference.  Weird, but true.

Hello Allen

I usually avoid getting involved in this kind of discussion as I feel my knowledge is too restricted to my own system to be of use to others. I avoid visiting a dealer until our system no longer enables us to use it, as we would like; i.e. when CD had virtually replaced vinyl and now streaming. 

However, in answer to the question you pose, there is no possibility of us ever removing either the Hi-Cap or XPS2 from our system.

Whilst I feel that on those occasions we have auditioned a new piece of kit it has been very good and acceptable in its own right, it has always improved with the addition of a PS. I see that as beneficial to the purchaser myself, it adds choice. The fact that a PS can be used on a variety of components is a valuable extra to their worth IMO.

Regards

Peter