NDX, nDAC and 555PS - Some Interesting Tests

Posted by: Asenna04 on 28 March 2011

I have been testing the new NDX over the last few days. My system is as follows:

SB Touch / USB Memory Sticks

nDAC

555PS

Hi-Line

252/Supercap

250

NAC A5 Speaker Cable

Ovator S400

The are 3 Powerlines on 555PS, Supercap and 250.

I let the NDX powed up and conencted to UPnP source and playing on mute for a few days.

Test 1 - NDX/555PS

I replaced the nDAC with the NDX powered by 555PS. The SQ was not on par with nDAC. It seemed the nDAC has more top end detail and tighter bass.

Test 2 - NDX

I then just decided to run the NDX on its own without the 555PS. The sound was much better. Better even then the nDAC/555PS. This got me confused. Sure that cannot be true. I scratched my head and wondered what be wrong. So I proceeded to Test 3.

Test 3 - nDAC

Based on what I found on Test 2, I decided to run the nDAC on its own without the 555PS playing from USB Memory. And again, I got much better sound then nDAC/555PS. So this pointed to setup or problem with 555PS. I checked the Bundy cable and it was very close (resting on) the power plugs where they connect to the wall sockets. The Hi-Line was also very close. So I moved them and the Bundy was well clear of all power cables and the Hi-Line was moved away as well.

This made a big difference to the sound. The nDAC/555PS sound much better then the nDAC on its own. Better timing, better top end, and bigger and tighter bass. This was a huge revelation. Everything was sounding great.

Test 4 - NDX Digital Out into nDAC/555PS

So I now connected the NDX playing from USB Memory with its digital out into the nDAC/555PS (via BNC to Phono Digital cable). I could not hear any difference between that and nDAC/555PS (Test 3)

Test 5 - NDX Digital Out into nDAC/555PS Vs NDX Analog Out

Now it gets interesting! With setup as Test 4 above I added a spare standard Naim lavender interconnect to connect the NDX Analog out to the Tuner signal input of the 252. The nDAC was still connected via the Hi-Line to the CD signal input of the 252. The NDX was therefore outputing both digital and analog signals. The digital to nDAC/555PS and Analog to 252. The digital signal went into nDAC/555PS and the analog output of that went into 252.

The results were shocking. I could not hear any difference when I switched the signal on the 252 via remote between the NDX and NDX/nDAC/555PS. I tried different tracks and the same the results was same. I could tell them apart.

I scratched my head again. If the NDX was sounding similar to nDAC, that would be fine. But how can the NDX sound the same as nDAC/555PS. Not even the Hi-Line was sounding different to the standard lavender interconnect! Shocking.

What does this mean? I could not come up with any possible explanation.

Test 6 - NDX/555PS Digital Out into nDAC Vs NDX/555PS Analog Out

After the shock of Test 5 above, I moved the 555PS to the NDX with the digital out still connected to the nDAC and analog out to 252. The nDAC was still connected via the Hi-Line to 252.

Results? I could not tell any difference on sound quality as in Test 5. But the big surprise again was that when I switched between the NDX/555PS signal on the 252 and the NDX/555PS/nDAC signal into the 252 I could tell them apart.

I could not believe it so I decided to do a blind listerning test. I asked my 8 year old daughter to help me. I asked her to decide which input on the remote was A and which was B and not reveal her decision to me. I then closed my eyes and asked her to switch to A or B. So now I did not even know which source signal was playing and switched between the two a number of times for different tracks. I could not really tell them apart, so picked what I thought was a better source and said A was number 1 on the remote (NDX/555PS/nDAC). I got it wrong, A was NDX/555PS.

What next?

So now I am confused, am I doing something wrong. Is this because the way I am running the test that is affecting the SQ of the results to be same? Surely not. The Analog signal is made in the individual boxes.

As for the Hi-Line, I thought maybe the Hi-Line was making up of the lack of 555PS on the nDAC. But this does not explain why the NDX would sound the same when the 555PS was on the nDAC.

This gives the conclution that the 555PS makes no difference to the SQ and the NDX is as good as the nDAC. But I have heard the nDAC get better when the 555PS is added to it. This makes me wonder if what I heard was real or percieved. Surely it is much better to hear any difference when you simply switch between different signals and play the first signal and then stop and play the second signal.

I got the NDX to test against the nDAC and decide which to keep. I did these tests last weekend and I am still thinking what I should do. But I am very confused now.

Request

To validate my findings, I would like to request other forum members who have the NDX, 555PS and nDAC to try Test 5 and Test 6. All you need is an extra interconnect (ideal if you have another Hi-Line). I know from other forum posts that aysil has all 3 and and some members who already have nDAC/555PS are planning to get the NDX.

Regards,

ASenna04

Posted on: 30 March 2011 by AMA

Originally Posted by AllenB:

Great marketing and well proven over the years.

Very true.

Posted on: 31 March 2011 by Geoff P

Allen

Anybody who has a naim system with added PS's I think will agree that the last thing you sell is something as ubiquitous as the 555PS.

I moved to streamed audio about 8 months ago and in the absence of a suitable naim product for direct network streaming at that time (the NDX was hardly even a gleam in Naim's eye) went for a Linn ADS, which I have to say is going to be hard for Naim to beat at the equivalent price point. Certainly an NDX on an XPS didn't as far as I am concerned.

The ADS replaced a CDS3/555PS combo. The CDS3 is now sold, though it took a while to find a customer. As for the 555PS that is safely packed away in it's box awaiting the NDS you are also waiting for, which I hope might be good enough to woo me back to Naim.

BTW I am not suggesting the ADS is out and out better than a CDS3/555PS combo. I actualy have Vinyl as my principle source and the CDS3 was starting to gather cobwebs. Certainly though when you move to HiRes audio the ADS wins.

Geoff

Posted on: 31 March 2011 by Dustysox

Hi Geoff,

Good to see you oot n aboot.

Is NDX on your radar for dem?

Posted on: 31 March 2011 by Geoff P

Originally Posted by Dustysox:

Hi Geoff,

Good to see you oot n aboot.

Is NDX on your radar for dem?

Thanks Dusty

My comment about the NDX on an XPS was as a result of a showroom demo.

regards

Geoff

Posted on: 31 March 2011 by Dustysox

it may be time to start warming up your 555PS. I have heard NDX at several dealer dems and it sounded non too shabby! Then a 555PS was added to the mix, and as with all Naim gear when a PS is added...OMG! (sorry about abreviation!).

Would love to read your thoughts when you are able to dem NDX at home especially when PS is added.

Posted on: 31 March 2011 by Frank Abela

My concern all the way through this discussion has been the earth loop issue pointed out by Richard. When the NDX is attached to a preamp via its analogue output, the Floating/Chassis switch becomes all-important. This is also true of the DAC obviously. Now, if you have both DAC and NDX connected to the preamp I am unsure which of the two should have the Floating or Chassis setting, and I am equally unsure what will happen if both are set to Chassis (or Floating, but particularly Chassis since that is meant to be the Naim central earth point).

I just think there's more here than meets the eye...

Regards,
Frank.
All opinions are my own and do not reflect the opinion of any organisations I work for, except where this is stated explicitly.

Posted on: 01 April 2011 by Asenna04

OK, so I have had just the NDX/555PS connected for the last few days. I have not done much listerning but last night I listerned for a few hours until quite late and I have not heard my system sound so good. The instruments are well separated with all the detail and the top end has never been so clear and well timed. The bass is tight and punchy. It is simply great. I can leave with the NDX, I thought.

Then I realised the problem I had with the Burndy that has most likely been there for a while and was compromising the nDAC/555PS. I will have to listern to the nDAC after that issue has been sorted out. I plan to do that this weekend if I get a few hours. I intend to do this properly i.e. listern to the NDX/555PS via USB for an hours or so and then switch to the nDAC/555PS via USB and listern to it for an hour and try to reach a conclution. If it is very close, I might have to switch back to the NDX/555PS. I will be listerning via USB to keep the test focused on the DAC sections of these two units. If I compared USB on the nDAC Vs uPnP on the NDX it would not be a fair comparison since the uPnP could be very different to USB. They might sound the same, but since I have not done any testing of the 2, I will focus on the USB as the source for the nDAC Vs NDX comparison.

ASenna04

Posted on: 01 April 2011 by totemphile

I second Allen's comments UPnP source would be much more interesting...

Btw, thanks for the great effort so far!!

Posted on: 02 April 2011 by js

While listening to USB on both may seem equal, it may not necessarily be so as the software players and how the files are addressed are likely different. I would try the nDAC via coax DC1 off the NDX and see how that fits the mix. It is possible that an NDX via coax into the nDAC could be better than the direct USB in even though it seems counterintuitive. Speaks to their main purposes and the DAC's excellent input circuit. To add confusion 555 ps to be tried on both and neither. Sorry as I don't have a NDX yet but these are the sorts of things I would try to get a good handle on everything.

Posted on: 05 April 2011 by Asenna04

OK, I got some time over the weekend to do the comparison, but not enough to do a comphensive test.

After AllenB's and totemphile's request, I decided to compare the NDX/555ps via USB with the NDX/555PS via uPnP and the conlcution was I could not hear any major difference between the two. I next listerned to a track on NDX/555PS USB and then swapped over to nDAC/555PS USB. The findings of the excersise was that the NDX/555PS had a different voicing to the nDAC/555PS, the nDAC was more in your face compared to the NDX. This was not in any way bad for the NDX, I kind of prefered that for that particular track. The nDAC definetly had a bit more detail but I was not sure if it was because I found it also sounded brighter then the NDX. I also liked the more bass coming from the NDX compared to nDAC.

I decided the NDX was at all not bad compared to the nDAC, but I have not reached a final conclution. I reserve that after more extended listerning sessions with each. But I liked the convinience of the NDX.

I will keep you posted.

ASenna04

Posted on: 06 April 2011 by Asenna04

I would like to quote what I read on another thread on the HiFi Corner Section of the Forums that I thought is very related to my findings. The quote is from catalinmetal and is as follows:

"I have experimented a bit with their new products, like the uniti serve, the nDAC, the uniti and, the unitiqute, and also I have a very good knowledge of naim cd5i, cd5x/xs, and cds3, and I think that the main difference is in the newer approach in Naim's design to the digital to analogue decoder."

"Newer products sound more open tonally, or we could say a bit brighter than the cdps, which tend to sound a bit darker."

"I've always seeked a very good balance of the tonality, and, seeing now how a qute sounds, i'm tempted in letting go to my cd5x/202/fc2x/180 setup for a qute, cause the big system tends to sound fatter, darker although more refined, but on certain records the overall tonal balance is more natural with the qute (or any of the newer products for that matter)."

I find this quite relates to my experience of nDAC/555ps Vs NDX/555PS. Although there is a voicing difference (with the nDAC more in your face), the nDAC is also tonally more brighter. This takes me back to the previous amps I used to own which had tonal adjustments and you can turn it up tto make it more brighter and down to increase the bass. The nDAC seems to be more brighter compared to the NDX. To me the NDX is more tone neutral of the 2 for the listerning I have done. But it needs much more sessions for a final conclution.

The full link to the other thread is as follows:

https://forums.naimaudio.com/displayForumTopic/content/4663909019987035

Regards,

ASenna04

Posted on: 07 April 2011 by Orfeo

Neutral ... seems a better way to present music...If still engaging as Naim philosophy

BkkB

Posted on: 11 April 2011 by Mward2205

NDX was tested in the new issue of Stereoplay, alone and with XPS but not with 555PS.

NDX alone is at the level of nDAC, and the XPS does more to the NDX then it does to the nDAc, or:

NDX+XPS > nDAC + XPS.

XPS is a very, VERY good addition to the NDX.

It may be the same with 555PS, but who knows? Well, the ones that have listened to them.

Posted on: 12 April 2011 by jon h

So the OP does a wholly flawed test, using a methodology he doesnt approve of, with absolutely no regard for the earthing situation (and Naim is to be blamed here for its inconsistent and varied advice on the matter) and he gets results he doesnt understand?

Well strap me to an oil rig and whip me with seaweed...

(Oh, and theres nothing wrong with AB comparisons *if done properly*. Which almost nobody does, but thats another story)

Posted on: 12 April 2011 by Asenna04

Originally Posted by jon honeyball:

Well strap me to an oil rig and whip me with seaweed...

(Oh, and theres nothing wrong with AB comparisons *if done properly*. Which almost nobody does, but thats another story)

Jon,

The above is not an accurate summary of this post. I did the tests in good faith for a genuine reason to decide which unit or combination of units will best suit my needs. I am not a proffesional with good experience of how to conduct tests and I posted by findings here to get insight on my findings which I found odd. I got very good feedback with some indicating A/B comparisons are not best and the earthing issue which I had not considered. So the excercise for me was a learning experience. I reflected on those feedbacks and saw some logic in the A/B tests issues and decided I should listern over a longer time period.

As you will find above, my initial findings are not that much different to most other people who have compared the two units i.e. there is a difference but it is not better/worse and it will depend on personal preference on which is better. From my findings with 555PS, I would not make the statement that 'NDX alone is at the level of nDAC' that Stereoplay makes. I will only say that they are different.

I am currently enjoying the NDX and the nDAC will be slotted in for one last listern for final decision. But I am heavily leaning towards NDX not least because of convinience factor:

1 Box Streamer and DAC

IPhone control - had high potential of upgarde via improvements in N-Stream

Display with full Remote control

System Automation - Control pre-amp with NDX remote and N-Stream

Radio

Regards,

ASenna04

Posted on: 12 April 2011 by Asenna04

Originally Posted by jon honeyball:

(Oh, and theres nothing wrong with AB comparisons *if done properly*. Which almost nobody does, but thats another story)

Jon,

It will be nice to hear your opinion on how to do A/B comparison properly.

ASenna04

Posted on: 12 April 2011 by gav111n

Asenna,

Personally, I value your NDX/nDAC comparison now, because you have made mistakes and been open about things along the way. You’ve laid the story out, taken advice and optimised your method to make the best decision. The context of the thread shows to me that you don’t have an agenda other than in deciding where best to spend your hard earned dosh.

At the moment I am enjoying (?!) squeezing the best out of my MacBookPro as a feed for the nDAC but at some point I will have to drop in a naim solution to see whether the effort was worth it. Let me know what your final decision is on NDX or nDAC.

Gav

Posted on: 23 May 2011 by totemphile

Originally Posted by Asenna04:

Originally Posted by jon honeyball:

Well strap me to an oil rig and whip me with seaweed...

(Oh, and theres nothing wrong with AB comparisons *if done properly*. Which almost nobody does, but thats another story)

Jon,

Originally Posted by ASenna04:

It will be nice to hear your opinion on how to do A/B comparison properly.

ASenna04

So Jon, where is your input then? It's all too easy slagging off people who have made an effort to share their experience here on this forum only to disappear into silence afterwards. Why not contribute something worthwhile instead?

Posted on: 24 May 2011 by Tog

Originally Posted by AllenB:

Originally Posted by Asenna04:

Originally Posted by jon honeyball:

(Oh, and theres nothing wrong with AB comparisons *if done properly*. Which almost nobody does, but thats another story)

Jon,

It will be nice to hear your opinion on how to do A/B comparison properly.

ASenna04

Yep, instead of flaming good-intentioned people and creating a bad taste, let's hear from the expert.

and Jon obviously

Tog

Posted on: 26 May 2011 by Asenna04

Hi all,

Just to update you all on my position.

When I had done long listerning sessions with just the NDX/555PS, I found the NDX sound to be very enjoyable. I did not have time to go through the different steps to do a long listerning session with the NDX/nDAC/555PS, but I did put it in for a brief listern. I quickly concluded that I much prefer just the NDX/555PS and the nDAC went back to the dealer.

I have had the NDX/555PS for over 6 weeks now and I find it has fitted in very well with my requriements and the sound is top notch.

I have since read that other members on this forum have reached similar conclusions. It is good to read that.

Regards,

ASenna04

Posted on: 26 May 2011 by J The Kop

I have been following this topic and I found the same conclusion at the end as well.

I much prefer NDX/XPS over nDAC/XPS. I don't have 555PS yet. I did a home demo compairing CDS3/XPS, NDX/XPS, nDAC/XPS, CDX2/nDAC/XPS, CDX2/NDX/XPS. I found CDX2/nDAC/XPS give brighter sound, at your face, and lot of detail. Streaming NDX/XPS and CDX2/NDX/XPS are similar, not a big difference. NDX/XPS and CDX2/NDX/XPS give smoother and more natural sound (not at your face feeling) with all the detail that nDAC has. CDS3/XPS is a bit dark and smoothest and analog. I used to enjoy CDS3 a lot and think that CDS3 is still better than nDAC, but not NDX. However, NDX and nDAC give me feeling of "live music" which is missing in CDS3 and CDX2.

At the end, my vote go to NDX/XPS following by CDS3/XPS, CDX2/nDAC/XPS last. I am now wondering what to do with nDAC and agree with Asenna04. I much prefer DAC in NDX over nDAC. So my nDAC will soon return to the dealer.

All demo were done with Hiline/552/500/ Powerlines/ all on Fraim/ Wilson Audio Sasha.

Posted on: 26 May 2011 by goldfinch

Maybe NDX and nDAC have quite different voicing, letting for different preferences... but why Naim has positioned the DAC as part of the NDX upgrade path if it is not really a more capable machine?

Posted on: 26 May 2011 by J The Kop

Agree, they both are good depending on the rest of the system and music....personal preferrence like speakers.

Posted on: 27 May 2011 by totemphile

Originally Posted by AllenB:

Strange isn't it? My dealer came around yesterday evening to listen to how the NDX was settling in my system. We both hugely preferred NDX/nDAC/555PS(on nDAC) to NDX/555PS. Much more 'life' to the music without the darkness.

Oh Allen, looks like you'll end up with an NDX/XPS/nDAC/555PS front end. So much for reducing your box count and Fraim levels

Posted on: 27 May 2011 by Salmon Dave

Originally Posted by goldfinch:

Maybe NDX and nDAC have quite different voicing, letting for different preferences... but why Naim has positioned the DAC as part of the NDX upgrade path if it is not really a more capable machine?

That was my thought a month or so ago.

The short answer is - just listen to the one you prefer**. If someone thinks they're better off with three boxes at £11,000 than one at £3000 that's for them to decide!

** (the NDX)