NDX, nDAC and 555PS - Some Interesting Tests
Posted by: Asenna04 on 28 March 2011
I have been testing the new NDX over the last few days. My system is as follows:
SB Touch / USB Memory Sticks
nDAC
555PS
Hi-Line
252/Supercap
250
NAC A5 Speaker Cable
Ovator S400
The are 3 Powerlines on 555PS, Supercap and 250.
I let the NDX powed up and conencted to UPnP source and playing on mute for a few days.
Test 1 - NDX/555PS
I replaced the nDAC with the NDX powered by 555PS. The SQ was not on par with nDAC. It seemed the nDAC has more top end detail and tighter bass.
Test 2 - NDX
I then just decided to run the NDX on its own without the 555PS. The sound was much better. Better even then the nDAC/555PS. This got me confused. Sure that cannot be true. I scratched my head and wondered what be wrong. So I proceeded to Test 3.
Test 3 - nDAC
Based on what I found on Test 2, I decided to run the nDAC on its own without the 555PS playing from USB Memory. And again, I got much better sound then nDAC/555PS. So this pointed to setup or problem with 555PS. I checked the Bundy cable and it was very close (resting on) the power plugs where they connect to the wall sockets. The Hi-Line was also very close. So I moved them and the Bundy was well clear of all power cables and the Hi-Line was moved away as well.
This made a big difference to the sound. The nDAC/555PS sound much better then the nDAC on its own. Better timing, better top end, and bigger and tighter bass. This was a huge revelation. Everything was sounding great.
Test 4 - NDX Digital Out into nDAC/555PS
So I now connected the NDX playing from USB Memory with its digital out into the nDAC/555PS (via BNC to Phono Digital cable). I could not hear any difference between that and nDAC/555PS (Test 3)
Test 5 - NDX Digital Out into nDAC/555PS Vs NDX Analog Out
Now it gets interesting! With setup as Test 4 above I added a spare standard Naim lavender interconnect to connect the NDX Analog out to the Tuner signal input of the 252. The nDAC was still connected via the Hi-Line to the CD signal input of the 252. The NDX was therefore outputing both digital and analog signals. The digital to nDAC/555PS and Analog to 252. The digital signal went into nDAC/555PS and the analog output of that went into 252.
The results were shocking. I could not hear any difference when I switched the signal on the 252 via remote between the NDX and NDX/nDAC/555PS. I tried different tracks and the same the results was same. I could tell them apart.
I scratched my head again. If the NDX was sounding similar to nDAC, that would be fine. But how can the NDX sound the same as nDAC/555PS. Not even the Hi-Line was sounding different to the standard lavender interconnect! Shocking.
What does this mean? I could not come up with any possible explanation.
Test 6 - NDX/555PS Digital Out into nDAC Vs NDX/555PS Analog Out
After the shock of Test 5 above, I moved the 555PS to the NDX with the digital out still connected to the nDAC and analog out to 252. The nDAC was still connected via the Hi-Line to 252.
Results? I could not tell any difference on sound quality as in Test 5. But the big surprise again was that when I switched between the NDX/555PS signal on the 252 and the NDX/555PS/nDAC signal into the 252 I could tell them apart.
I could not believe it so I decided to do a blind listerning test. I asked my 8 year old daughter to help me. I asked her to decide which input on the remote was A and which was B and not reveal her decision to me. I then closed my eyes and asked her to switch to A or B. So now I did not even know which source signal was playing and switched between the two a number of times for different tracks. I could not really tell them apart, so picked what I thought was a better source and said A was number 1 on the remote (NDX/555PS/nDAC). I got it wrong, A was NDX/555PS.
What next?
So now I am confused, am I doing something wrong. Is this because the way I am running the test that is affecting the SQ of the results to be same? Surely not. The Analog signal is made in the individual boxes.
As for the Hi-Line, I thought maybe the Hi-Line was making up of the lack of 555PS on the nDAC. But this does not explain why the NDX would sound the same when the 555PS was on the nDAC.
This gives the conclution that the 555PS makes no difference to the SQ and the NDX is as good as the nDAC. But I have heard the nDAC get better when the 555PS is added to it. This makes me wonder if what I heard was real or percieved. Surely it is much better to hear any difference when you simply switch between different signals and play the first signal and then stop and play the second signal.
I got the NDX to test against the nDAC and decide which to keep. I did these tests last weekend and I am still thinking what I should do. But I am very confused now.
Request
To validate my findings, I would like to request other forum members who have the NDX, 555PS and nDAC to try Test 5 and Test 6. All you need is an extra interconnect (ideal if you have another Hi-Line). I know from other forum posts that aysil has all 3 and and some members who already have nDAC/555PS are planning to get the NDX.
Regards,
ASenna04
Posted on: 27 May 2011 by Salmon Dave
Originally Posted by AllenB:
my dealer has a good ear (being a musician himself),
Status Quo are musicians (by profession) and are mostly stone deaf.
Posted on: 27 May 2011 by Aron
I'm about to receive my NDX,282,250.2 so I'm curious to know if someone knows anything about the floating and chassis setting?
Posted on: 27 May 2011 by KRM
I agree about the NDAC Allen. My dealer and I came to the same conclusion. The NDAC makes the NDX sound more live and to our ears was clearly better. It is true that the CDX2 sounds brighter through the NDAC, and I can understand why some may not like that, but it doesn't seem to have the same effect on the NDX. If I didn't already own the DAC maybe I wouldn't feel the need for one, but it isn't going back, no way! The downside for me isn't the shelf count, but the fact that the distribution block only has six sockets. If only Musicworks would do an eight socket version of the Reflex.
Keith
Posted on: 27 May 2011 by pcstockton
Makes sense to me.....
A Qute/nDAC is good
An NDX is great
A NDX>nDAC is the best (for some)
Obviously people will decide on their own whether the nDAC helps or hinders the NDX.
Seems to be a fairly straightforward (and expected) hierarchy to me.
-Patrick
Posted on: 27 May 2011 by Guido Fawkes
Originally Posted by Salmon Dave:
Status Quo are musicians (by profession) and are mostly stone deaf.
So was Beethoven
It is true of any product that it is opinion - some musicians on the Gadget show preferred MP3 to hi-res and vinyl. I think the cost is irrelevant in the end, it is what you like best. I like the Naim DAC a lot; I'm still unsure about what is the best way to feed it. So far nothing I've tried beats that cheapest of all transports: the USB stick, but quite why I haven't a clue. I would seriously consider using the NDX in the way Allen is using it, but I'd want Airplay support on it first and even then I'd let others try it first - never been keen on being the first.
Posted on: 28 May 2011 by KRM
Hi Allen,
Yes, that's exactly it. I was amazed at the way the NDX still weaves it's magic, even when the DAC and power supply hve been outsourced.
We compared the NDX to Accurate at the orginal demo's. The Accurate is a wonderful machine on it's own but NDAC plus power supply clearly improved it without changing it's fundamental nature. The same was true with the NDX. I had not expected the streamer part of the audio chain to make such a fundamental difference and was uncomfortable about paying £3k and only using part of of it my new black box. My ears tell me that I now own a truly wonderful front end, and it's still getting better (now entering week three). The inadaquacies of the n-Stream get lost because the sound is good. I've spent so much time sat here listening to music, and I listen to the iRadio far more than I expected (Radio Paradise is wonderful).
Never mind selling the NDAC, I'm more likely to sell the telly at this rate!
Keith
Posted on: 28 May 2011 by Simon-in-Suffolk
Hi, I feel I can contribute now! I was at my dear yesterday evening for a listening session. I listened to the NDX feeding an nDAC with 555PS. It was very good, and had an appealing forward sound. The upper mid was slightly pronounced but clear and articulate. The stereo image was expansive. But perhaps on rock slightly exaggerated. We listened to two different masters of the Final Cut ( cheery lyric)
We then tried the nDAC with 555PS on it's own. I liked it. The upper mid prominence had gone and slightly more ressessed, but gorgeous with Rock. Final Cut sounded correctly in proportion.
So I have the NDX on home audition now and fed by my XPS. It is certainly the best non CD digital player I have heard from Naim. The tonal balance is quite a bit warmer than my CDS3, and perhaps slightly less dynamic on the higher frequencies but again quite impressive so far I will have a better view by Tuesday.
However issues/observations
Won't play FLAC from DLNA server whilst other non Naim players connected to same server do.
The iRadio that many people have raved about is quite a disappointment on the 320kbps channels -(compared to good FM quality). Sounds relatively flat and un involving, good for background music and radio surfing but not much else.
Simon
Posted on: 28 May 2011 by likesmusic
lol! so that's what the golden eared mean by FLAC sounding different to WAV through an NDX!
Posted on: 28 May 2011 by Simon-in-Suffolk
Allen et al,
My friendly dealer rang up and advised me to power cycle the NDX, and have done so and the FLACs have all started to work!! I suspect Naim must be working on a bug fix here as we speak....
Interesting the warmer sound has lessened on the power cycle as well, now more neutral .. Go figure?
The unit is a demo unit and I believe quite well run in.
Finally now I have FLACs working, I have to say on the NDX they sound quite inferior to WAVs.... More brittle and digital sounding... So auditioning in wavs for the time being as my netgear NAS doesn't have the horsepower to transcode although max bandwidth VBR mp3 s sound quite good, albeit obviously not with the detail and presence of wavs.
Simon
Posted on: 28 May 2011 by Simon-in-Suffolk
Allen, starting to get a feel of the NDX now. It is very, very good but frustratingly it's not a CDS3. There just appears a bit of upper mid compression and 'digital hash / grain' compared to the CDS3, most noticeable with complex music and compressed female vocals. I guess shouldn't expect the NDX with XPS to be on a par with the CDS3. But I was/am hoping.....
I can definitely say the NDX with the nDAC with 555ps sounded very good, albeit more forward than I am used to. I just don't have the funds for that combo..
I won't be hasty, I have until Tuesday and I have learnt that Naim equipment/cables do need to settle down, but perhaps my CDS3 is going to spinning for more time yet.. or in other words it has brought that silly grin to my face yet that the CDS3 did and still occasionally does..
Simon
Posted on: 28 May 2011 by Simon-in-Suffolk
Allen, got Asset uPnP running, seems to work well with N Stream with meta data and album art and transcodes FLACs to WAVs and now my FLACs sound as good as WAVs on the NDX. Tnx for the heads up..
Simon
Posted on: 29 May 2011 by Salmon Dave
Originally Posted by AllenB:
Originally Posted by Salmon Dave:
Originally Posted by AllenB:
my dealer has a good ear (being a musician himself),
Status Quo are musicians (by profession) and are mostly stone deaf.
That would explain it then 
Simply extending your logic old chum.
Posted on: 29 May 2011 by Salmon Dave
Originally Posted by AllenB:
Originally Posted by Salmon Dave:
That was my thought a month or so ago.
The short answer is - just listen to the one you prefer**. If someone thinks they're better off with three boxes at £11,000 than one at £3000 that's for them to decide!
** (the NDX)
Was there a point to this reply?
It was a (reasonable) reply to Goldfinch's question.
Posted on: 29 May 2011 by Simon-in-Suffolk
Allen
You have it exactly right with regard to CDS3 and network players 
The NDX has settled in further, and is sounding even better. I was pleaseantly suprised how well it renditioned some Northern Soul CDs that had been created from the 45's - really brought to them life.
Been ripping Wavs, even with transcoding with Asset I am not sure/convinced yet that trasncoded AIFF and FLACs sound as good as native WAVs despite my earlier post. Without sniffing the network with Wire Shark I will not go into why that should be right now. (Possible different TCP windows sizes etc).
So things that I have noticed in listening.. the HF energey in acoustic music that gives finer details of instruments and presence is more veiled than the CDS3. Sibilence in reverbed vocals is slightly more accentuated and I have also noticed some unusual distortion/beating effects in recordings with closely miked harmonic rich acoustic instruments like folk violins that I have not noticed before. Perhaps NDX DSP accentuates these ????..
But other than I am warming to the NDX.
Simon
Posted on: 29 May 2011 by Simon-in-Suffolk
Yes...
What a difference... Slap a ferrite clamp around the Ethernet UTP lead and make sure the display is *off*. grain goes, sibilance goes back, HF presence starts to come back... Bass tiightens. Listening to some Deadmau5 On a freshly ripped WAV and it is doing the business, sharp and deep. :-)
Glad I discovered that.....
Simon
Posted on: 29 May 2011 by KRM
Hi Simon,
Interesting post. Are you saying that you've put a ferrite clamp rond the ethernet cable that runs from the switch (or router) to the NDX?
Keith
Posted on: 29 May 2011 by Simon-in-Suffolk
Keith
Exactly that. The biggest difference is with turning the display off however, but the ferrite clamp on the Ethernet lead also helped slightly sharpen things up, and very easy to do. I am feeding the NDX with a 5m regular CAT 5 UTP cable from a 4 port netgear switch which I have in my lounge which then has a long run to a master Cisco switch elsewhere in the house.
Simon
Posted on: 30 May 2011 by Rich27
Simon, what sort of ferrite clamp did you use for the ethernet cable?
Posted on: 30 May 2011 by Simon-in-Suffolk
I can't tell you the make, but they ar HF RFI ferrite clamps from my radio engineering toolbox. If you search on google ferrite clamps shopping results you will see a range for different cable diameters.
I clamp it at the naim end of the cable.
The purpose of this is to provide reactive load to common mode RF travelling along the cable. You can put multiple clamps on until you hear no difference. It might also be of course that you have no common mode RF and so they will make no difference to you, trial and error is required.
Simon
Posted on: 30 May 2011 by Simon-in-Suffolk
Allen, I am close to deciding, and I think it's going to be a keeper. My music really is very enjoyable through the NDX. It's all settled in, streaming wavs from Asset uPNP server, using Ethernet with an RF clamp, switched display off, using DIN, deactivating all unused digital input, mounted on Fraim and powered by an XPS2, and it sounds great. I am not sure it is quite as clean as the CDS3, but I like it and am noticing things in recordings I have not heard before, got to be a good sign.
Simon
Posted on: 30 May 2011 by Hook
Ferrite clamps or no, I want one.
And despite Allen's rather surprising findings, it is still hard for me to get emotionally past the fact that I would be using it only as a transport for the DAC/555PS.
But I still really, really want one.
Hook
PS - Just saw that ferrite clamps are $3-to-5 a piece. At that price, is there any reason not to clamp each and every wire going into each and every box? Simon -- is there any possible downside at all (beyond them having no effect in some environments)? Thanks!
Posted on: 30 May 2011 by Simon-in-Suffolk
Hook, no downside if you are using coax, mains leads or twisted pair cables such as CAT5.
Well my final instalment of this bank holiday audition....
I plugged my CDS3 back in and span some discs... Well I think Allen is right, the NDX can't compete. The sound has become super clean, timing improved and sound stage opened out ( and it's cold!!!) That beguiling bass grove of the NDX and the CDX2 before it grabs you in, but at the expense of seemingly that extra special 'S' sound.
I think Allen is right I need to hear the NDX with a 555ps, to see if it sounds closer to this remarkable CDS3. if I had never heard the CDS3 this would have been soooooo easy.
So lesson if you want a streamer DO NOT listen to a CDS3 unless you have the funds to get the Allen combo, NDX, 555ps nDAC.
Simon
Posted on: 31 May 2011 by Hook
Originally Posted by AllenB:
...
Hook
I hope I haven't put you off the NDX with my experience of the NDX/555PS. I imagine your thoughts were / are very similar to mine, the NDX must replace the nDAC to avoid mutiple component redundancy, but as I have emphasised many times in my recent posts, the renderer / music player part of the NDX is the jewel in the NDX crown. For me and through all the experiments over the last 2-3 years, I have come to believe that this part before the DAC and output stages are all important, the most important in attaining the sound I want to hear. The NDX in this respect is the best I have heard for a network player
. ..
Cheers
Allen
Not at all Allen! My initial feelings were that the NDX would only make sense for me if it could replace the DAC. But after reading your findings (as well as those of other NDX owners), I have -- at least temporarily -- changed my view, and now I plan to evaluate it as a transport for the DAC.
Recall that I have been holding fast to the belief that there was no way I could possibly hear any differences among "high quality" sources for the DAC. To date, that has been the case for me. But your experience with the NDX has caused me to suspend my disbelief, and as I told my dealer yesterday, if the Mrs. and I can hear a significant improvement in sound quality using the NDX as a transport for the DAC/555PS (versus my DIY PC with the RME 9632 card), then I will buy it.
That said, I will have the NDX for three weeks, so plenty long enough to try all of the various permutations. Still, if I go based on what you and others have written, then I am pretty sure that I will also prefer the analog output of the DAC over the NDX....but I will try and keep an open mind.
The other catalyst for me is the 24/192 recordings I've been making from my vinyl collection. To my ears, they are sounding very good, and so I am now extremely curious to hear how much closer (if any) the NDX can bring them to the original vinyl.
My only caution is that my amplification level is not at your level, so there remains the possibility that it is only with the 552/500 that the advantages of the NDX as a source for the DAC can be clearly heard!
Hook
PS - The demo NDX will arrive in early July accompanied by a pair of well-broken-in Ovator 400's, so it promises to be a very entertaining month!
Posted on: 31 May 2011 by Simon-in-Suffolk
Allen, not negative at all, and sorry if I misrepresented your views slightly. I totally agree we all listen to things differently.
By the way been listening to the NDX with 555ps this evening. Very interesting and more appealing than with the XPS2. Sound cleaned up and presentation lighter. Stereo field is awesome and nice detail. I shall do some more listening tomorrow.
Simon
Posted on: 31 May 2011 by AMA
Simon, is there a chance for you to listen a NDX/nDAC/555PS combo against CDS3/555PS?
The way you describe the music qualities of CDS3 is close to my own view on this wonderful player.
But that was long time ago and my current nDAC/XPS setup seems to provide a better resolution and soundstage (but a bit more forward and bright).
