NDX, nDAC and 555PS - Some Interesting Tests

Posted by: Asenna04 on 28 March 2011

I have been testing the new NDX over the last few days. My system is as follows:

SB Touch / USB Memory Sticks

nDAC

555PS

Hi-Line

252/Supercap

250

NAC A5 Speaker Cable

Ovator S400

The are 3 Powerlines on 555PS, Supercap and 250.

I let the NDX powed up and conencted to UPnP source and playing on mute for a few days.

Test 1 - NDX/555PS

I replaced the nDAC with the NDX powered by 555PS. The SQ was not on par with nDAC. It seemed the nDAC has more top end detail and tighter bass.

Test 2 - NDX

I then just decided to run the NDX on its own without the 555PS. The sound was much better. Better even then the nDAC/555PS. This got me confused. Sure that cannot be true. I scratched my head and wondered what be wrong. So I proceeded to Test 3.

Test 3 - nDAC

Based on what I found on Test 2, I decided to run the nDAC on its own without the 555PS playing from USB Memory. And again, I got much better sound then nDAC/555PS. So this pointed to setup or problem with 555PS. I checked the Bundy cable and it was very close (resting on) the power plugs where they connect to the wall sockets. The Hi-Line was also very close. So I moved them and the Bundy was well clear of all power cables and the Hi-Line was moved away as well.

This made a big difference to the sound. The nDAC/555PS sound much better then the nDAC on its own. Better timing, better top end, and bigger and tighter bass. This was a huge revelation. Everything was sounding great.

Test 4 - NDX Digital Out into nDAC/555PS

So I now connected the NDX playing from USB Memory with its digital out into the nDAC/555PS (via BNC to Phono Digital cable). I could not hear any difference between that and nDAC/555PS (Test 3)

Test 5 - NDX Digital Out into nDAC/555PS Vs NDX Analog Out

Now it gets interesting! With setup as Test 4 above I added a spare standard Naim lavender interconnect to connect the NDX Analog out to the Tuner signal input of the 252. The nDAC was still connected via the Hi-Line to the CD signal input of the 252. The NDX was therefore outputing both digital and analog signals. The digital to nDAC/555PS and Analog to 252. The digital signal went into nDAC/555PS and the analog output of that went into 252.

The results were shocking. I could not hear any difference when I switched the signal on the 252 via remote between the NDX and NDX/nDAC/555PS. I tried different tracks and the same the results was same. I could tell them apart.

I scratched my head again. If the NDX was sounding similar to nDAC, that would be fine. But how can the NDX sound the same as nDAC/555PS. Not even the Hi-Line was sounding different to the standard lavender interconnect! Shocking.

What does this mean? I could not come up with any possible explanation.

Test 6 - NDX/555PS Digital Out into nDAC Vs NDX/555PS Analog Out

After the shock of Test 5 above, I moved the 555PS to the NDX with the digital out still connected to the nDAC and analog out to 252. The nDAC was still connected via the Hi-Line to 252.

Results? I could not tell any difference on sound quality as in Test 5. But the big surprise again was that when I switched between the NDX/555PS signal on the 252 and the NDX/555PS/nDAC signal into the 252 I could tell them apart.

I could not believe it so I decided to do a blind listerning test. I asked my 8 year old daughter to help me. I asked her to decide which input on the remote was A and which was B and not reveal her decision to me. I then closed my eyes and asked her to switch to A or B. So now I did not even know which source signal was playing and switched between the two a number of times for different tracks. I could not really tell them apart, so picked what I thought was a better source and said A was number 1 on the remote (NDX/555PS/nDAC). I got it wrong, A was NDX/555PS.

What next?

So now I am confused, am I doing something wrong. Is this because the way I am running the test that is affecting the SQ of the results to be same? Surely not. The Analog signal is made in the individual boxes.

As for the Hi-Line, I thought maybe the Hi-Line was making up of the lack of 555PS on the nDAC. But this does not explain why the NDX would sound the same when the 555PS was on the nDAC.

This gives the conclution that the 555PS makes no difference to the SQ and the NDX is as good as the nDAC. But I have heard the nDAC get better when the 555PS is added to it. This makes me wonder if what I heard was real or percieved. Surely it is much better to hear any difference when you simply switch between different signals and play the first signal and then stop and play the second signal.

I got the NDX to test against the nDAC and decide which to keep. I did these tests last weekend and I am still thinking what I should do. But I am very confused now.

Request

To validate my findings, I would like to request other forum members who have the NDX, 555PS and nDAC to try Test 5 and Test 6. All you need is an extra interconnect (ideal if you have another Hi-Line). I know from other forum posts that aysil has all 3 and and some members who already have nDAC/555PS are planning to get the NDX.

Regards,

ASenna04

Posted on: 01 June 2011 by Simon-in-Suffolk

Hi AMA Unfortunately I don't have a ndac and this time around I won't be able to borrow from the dealer before giving the NDX back. However the NDX with 555ps sounded very good and bright. The CDS3 with 555ps was less bright, sound stage slightly compressed, but perhaps tonally more realistic. I'll listen more family permitting tonight. Simon

Posted on: 02 June 2011 by Simon-in-Suffolk

Hi, well my mind has been set and a decision made... After a little while the NDX with 555ps did settle down nicely. The 555PS really does transform the connected devices and differences do vary from device to device, and the effect on the NDX is very significant. My comments
A) CDS3 / 555ps extremely clean and voices striking
B) NDX / 555ps ever so slightly less clean, but punchier, livelier sound, better soundstage.

I have decided to change!!!! I will be changing to the NDX / 555PS camp..

Simon

Posted on: 03 June 2011 by Hook

Originally Posted by Simon-in-Suffolk:

Hi, well my mind has been set and a decision made.......I will be changing to the NDX / 555PS camp..

Simon

Wow...did not see that one coming. Congrats Simon!

We all know you put a lot of time and thought into this bake-off before making your final decision, but I don't think anyone would have been surprised if you stayed with the CDS3.

The most interesting thing to me is how, by remaining patient, you gave the NDX enough time to "come on song", or for your ears and brain to become accustomed to its sound. Whichever it is, I think you picked the right streaming technology to move forward with. It is becoming quite clear, IMO, that Naim has produced a real winner with the NDX.

And, while I hesitate to say it, I might as well (heck, if I don't, someone else will)......at some point in the future, you still have the option of evaluating the DAC as an upgrade!

Hook

Posted on: 03 June 2011 by Stubby

Congratulations Simon, it is amazing what the 555PS brings to the party. Mind you, like Hook, from your earlier comments I didn't see this outcome coming!

I have today just sold my CDS3 - I have to admit that I'm still not convinced I'm doing the right thing as it was sounding pretty darn good. I shall shortly be joining the ranks of the NDX owners club too..

Stuart

Posted on: 03 June 2011 by Dustysox

Originally Posted by AllenB:

Originally Posted by Hook:

And, while I hesitate to say it, I might as well (heck, if I don't, someone else will)......at some point in the future, you still have the option of evaluating the DAC as an upgrade!

Hook

I thought better of mentioning it

& 555PS on DAC & 555PS on NDX!!!

Posted on: 03 June 2011 by Dustysox

Has anyone tried this combo?

He says with lottery no's and everything crossed!

Posted on: 03 June 2011 by Simon-in-Suffolk

Stubby
Yes the CDS3 is a damn fine player and I said to my dealer I hope that I am doing the right thing. I think I am.. But until I got the preloved 555ps the CDS3 was way more enjoyable than the NDX. The 555ps was the leveller, and Allen said there are more options with the NDX going forward.
I guess if I am honest if I hadn't found Graham's preloved 555PS I would have been staying with the CDS3/ XPS, as I could not afford a new 555ps and without it the NDX didn't really do it for me as you saw in my previous posts.

Dusty sox
If you enjoy the CDS3 I would not really think of substituting it with the NDX unless you have 555ps to hand, well in my experience anyway.
I did listen to the NDX nDAC/555ps and was very good, the NDX / 555ps is also very good, but a somewhat less forward in your face presentation. Horses for courses.....
Simon

Posted on: 03 June 2011 by Simon-in-Suffolk

Hook and Allen stop it!!!!! Funds are now exhausted. :-)
Simon

Posted on: 19 June 2011 by Asenna04

Simon, Well done! It is a good decision. Seeing experienced people Iike you deciding on NDX/555PS makes me feel I Made the right choice when I did it when the NDX was just released. I have not had much time lately to enjoy mine, but I am very happy with it. ASenna04

Posted on: 19 June 2011 by Simon-in-Suffolk

Hi, thanks, yes I have a dealer loan NDX currently, whilst I wait for my shiny new NDX to be made/delivered, I think there is a little wait at present...
However I am having a mare with uPNP streamers working reliably with Naim. (with wavs containing ID3 tags and album art, and FLACs not being playable, usually both fixed by switching the NDX on and off) I am coming round to the conclusion that Naim's uPNP client implementation on the NDX is rather 'specific'... and perhaps really the only reliable way to go is with a Naim uPNP style streamer server.
Simon

Posted on: 19 June 2011 by Dustysox

Ello.

After some advice. I current have my XPS on the NDAC, i tried the XPS on the NDX and it didn't really do it for me. I preferred it on the DAC.

I'm thinking of adding 555PS, should i part ex XPS in for 555PS or keep XPS and add another Fraim shelf and connect 555PS to NDX?

My problem is that my fraim is already quite high and where it currently is there is not enough room for splitting and having a side by side set up.The "cheapest" route would be to part ex XPS.

Just "toying" with ideas at the mo.

Posted on: 19 June 2011 by Simon-in-Suffolk

Dustysox, I know where you ate coming from!! The XPS with NDX was good but... For me was a downgrade on the CDS3 / XPS.
I managed to acquire a 555ps. It did amazing things to the NDX, it tightened and extended the bass, treble became cleaner an extended, stereo field became more defined, sound became detailed and retained its natural feel with very appealing clarity in the mids. The NDX with 555ps is my chosen digital source now. As I type listening to some 24bit (Extrapolated from HDCD) Dave Brubeck... Awesome.
Simon

Posted on: 19 June 2011 by Jonn

Having only briefly listened to the NDX at a dealer demo, I thought that the NDX/555PS was more of a sideways move rather than a significant improvement compared with CDS3/555PS, albeit with different strengths and weaknesses.

Of course it has the advantage over the CDS3 of being able to play hi res.

IMO the NDS will be the real performance step-change with a better DAC, selected components and probably two box i.e. requiring a separate PS. Naim's pricing structure suggests around twice the cost of NDX plus PS. No announcement from Naim yet but I wouldn't be surprised if an NDS appears within the next 12 months given the rate at which NAIM seem to be launching new products and needing to compete on price/performance with the Linn KDS.

Posted on: 19 June 2011 by Simon-in-Suffolk

I thought that the NDX/555PS was more of a sideways move rather than a significant improvement compared with CDS3/555PS,

Jonn, I agree. There are sublte strengths and weaknesses between the two but they are on a par - and definitely in the same league, but for me my CD habit was getting really bad !! and now I can keep them out of sight on a NAS and still enjoy the indulgence of a gratuitous listening session

Simon

Posted on: 20 June 2011 by SKDriver

Originally Posted by Simon-in-Suffolk:

Simon,

I have had my NDX for about three weeks now and it has finally opened up and giving me what I heard in the demo. I will have the opportunity for a further upgrade to my system in about 4 months; can you very briefly tell me what the XPS lacks in comparison to the 555PS when added to the NDX. Would the difference even be noticeable in the context of my system in your opinion? I would be purchasing either new XPS or used 555PS.

Thanks SKD

Posted on: 25 June 2011 by Simon-in-Suffolk

SKD,
Sorry for the delay.... the 555PS gives a cleaner and more sparky sound, and tightens and extends the bass to an extent it can be quite remarkable.
The XPS encourages a softer more cuddly restrained sound, that seems to encourage a slight upper bass bloom very appealing, but once you sampled the 555PS it's hard to go back. On the NDX I found the XPS caused a slightly less clean treble, ie slightly more sibilance. That all went with the 555ps.

I have to admit borrowing an nDAC with my 555ps on the NDX, and it really does sound remarkable.

Simon

Posted on: 25 June 2011 by Hook

Originally Posted by Simon-in-Suffolk:

...
I have to admit borrowing an nDAC with my 555ps on the NDX, and it really does sound remarkable.

Simon

Remarkable? C'mon Simon, details please!

So did you try the 555PS on both components?

And other than cost and complexity, did you find any downside to adding the DAC into your mix?

Thanks!

Hook

Posted on: 25 June 2011 by Simon-in-Suffolk

Hi hook, well I decided to stay away from hyperbole and cliches but the ndac/555ps allows me to listen into music in a way that s new to me. You have to audition to know what I mean... Timing, emotion, neutrality and stero image are superb.
The ndac/555ps on the ndx is all plus, other than bank balance.
Cheers
Simon

Posted on: 25 June 2011 by Hook

Originally Posted by Simon-in-Suffolk:

Hi Simon -

I've been listening to the NDAC/555PS for about a year now, and concur 100%!

I also have an NDX loaner en route, and will be repeating a number of the listening tests you and AllenB and others have already tried. Am very curious to hear how the NDX compares to my current S/PDIF transport, a DIY PC with an RME 9632 sound card. The other options I will be trying are NDX/555PS standalone, and NDX/555PS->DAC (recalling a show from last year where a dealer claimed that this config produced better sound than the NDX->DAC/555PS).

Hook

Posted on: 26 June 2011 by Dustysox

Hi,

I jsut wanted to add that yesterday I had bit of a eutopia moment. I connected XPS onto NDX again...and wow!! Much better, this means NDAC runs without external supply.

I had posted that I didn't think I could hear a difference...what was I thinking "Clothsox"!!! i can only imagine that NDX needed more time to run in...or I was having a bad day.

Now the what if's begin...555PS on NDX...XPS on NDAC...more expense...must resist..

Resistance is futile....

Posted on: 26 June 2011 by Simon-in-Suffolk

Dustysox, interesting. For what ever reason the XPS on the nDAC didn't work for me, so not surprised by your comments.
I am now trying to leave the electronics alone and focus on other areas. So far I have found the following with NDX on regular Fraim and 555PS on regular Fraim base.

1) NDAC on Fraim light. Superb on ripped 44.1kHz sampled content ( multiple bit depths). I feel I can listen right into the format, as I can hear and appreciate the very different styles of mastering and recording media and recording techniques and processing techniques, fascinating..and truly rewarding. Timing, pace and emotion/energy really communicate well, Switching between albums sometimes requires a break of 10 mins or so as the difference in mastering/recording technique or age can quite significant and otherwise off-putting. (I guess the brain needs to reset).
However hidefinition can sound a bit flat on some classical music.

2) NDAC on regular Fraim. 44.1kHz not quite so good, the neutrality slightly removed, the top end slightly too forward. The music doesn't connect the same as in 1).
However high definition is superb. The extra sparkle makes classical recordings come beautifully alive.

Anyone else experience this? Or something similar. BTW the hidef music is fro HDtracks, and these might be the cause of 1). I will try with Naim and Linn titles as well.

Simon

Posted on: 26 June 2011 by Dustysox

Hi Simon,

I had the tape measure out yesterday with a view to "can I spllit my Fraim in to two"? This would mean buying another base and shelf if I were to go for additional 555PS. Thankfully I can squeeze it in. The benefits are obvious in that it would enable me to have brawn/brain Fraim. Going forward and funds permitting pt ex XPS and buy another 555PS thus having NDX & NDAC both with 555PS's on them.

I concur with Allen's observations that box count gets out of control. Having said that I don't really look at the Fraim/box count as the beautiful music takes over.

I also tried NDX straight into my 552 and whilst still sounded rather good i preferred the NDAC in between + I still use my Logitech Transporter into NDAC for party/mixes/cressfade etc and Spotify which I still ratehr enjoy. The Transporter to my ears and it's age was way ahead of the game weh released. Obviously NDX and now XPS has massively increased that gap;.

Great reports/posts Simon re Fraim light. Keep up the good work.

Posted on: 26 June 2011 by Jonn

Interested to know why you would want to "max out" NDX when the smart money would suggest that Naim is working on an NDS which (I'm speculating here) would be a two boxer with mandatory XPS/555PS at least the match of NDX/555PS/nDAC/555PS. This on the basis of the established Naim product hierarchy.

Posted on: 26 June 2011 by Simon-in-Suffolk

John, well I guess some of live for the moment, my three box count works superbly for me and gives a fantastic dac for the AppleTV and SkySTB so my overall box count is reduced. Also the used market with Naim is really healthy, if a later upgrade beckons.
To me the replay on 44.1 is now pretty incredible with the ndx, ndac/555ps on fraim and to some extent reminds me of the days I did studio engineering at the BBC, I was gobsmacked then, but somehow consumer hifi never lived up to those experiences until now. :-)
I guess the development and evolution is going to be high def, and optimum DSP algorithms for it, I guess it is early days there in consumer land and there is very little 'quality' content. Also perhaps later ND? Versions will be less RFI sensitive, however one can work around it with care.
Simon

Posted on: 26 June 2011 by AMA

There are constant rumours about XPS or even 555PS on NDX when running through nDAC/PS.

I share Allen's view that using external PS will hardly deliver a huge improvement on digital output of NDX at least when it runs into reclocking nDAC. Powerline on NDX is possibly all it needs. But sometimes the "engineering" way of thinking is misleading. I wonder if this is a case for NDX when it's used as a digital streamer. Is there a different experience out there?