Would I benefit from adding a switch?

I'd say dont fix what's not broken.  Your router includes the functions of a switch, which is why you can plug multiple devices into it.  I have about 10 such devices, so I could not possibly plug them all into my router (which only has 3 extra ports) so I NEED a switch.  Given that you have no problem with iRadio or hi res files, you're fine imho! 

There's a lot going for if it ain't broke,  but broke or not and/or seems to be working OK not withstanding, it will work better with a switch even if you might not hear it.

The problem with the basic ISP supplied broadband routers is they can't identify the source or intended destinations of the information received & they send data to all the devices connected on the network. Additionally they can’t send & receive at the same time & this together with there data distribution limitations makes them slow & overload is a potential problem. 

Switches are significantly faster & able to handle far more traffic because they can send & receive simultaneously & communicate only with the devices they are programmed for. 

The Ethernet connections are easy  

     Sky BB Hub

             |

ND5 - Switch - NAS     

If it all works properly and you have not run out of sockets, you don't need a switch. But you can have one if you want one.

I'd be tempted to give it a try given the small investment required, you'd only need the Netgear swich at about £20 plus another short ethernet cable. My guess is that you'd hear little or no SQ improvement, but who knows? You would have the benefit of a couple of spare ports in case you wanted to add other devices, for example a backup device for your NAS??

There is a potential disadvantage too; you'd be introducing another SMPS to your mains, and if you have to put it on the same circuit as your main hifi units it could cause a bit of degradation.

Thanks guys...I guess for £20, there is not a lot to lose. Funnily enough, my Sky Router has 4 sockets. My NAS, ND5 XS and Freesat box are already hard wired to it, but if I decided to plug in the Blu-Ray and TV, I'd run out of sockets! And, as technology moves forward, I'm sure I'll buy something else in the future that requires an Ethernet connection

Does it matter which socket you use on the switch and the router, to connect them with the short Ethernet cable?

No, just plug everything else's ethernet cable into a socket in the switch, and let it work out what data goes where. Simple.

Again, I would add if it's not  broken, don't fix it. My gripe with the GS105 is that it is quite electrically dirty, ( mostly from its SPSU) and so you might actually making matters worse by using it if all is working well without.

I removed my Netgear GS105 away from my audio equipment and replaced with a Cisco 2960 with inbuilt PSU. I was getting RFI into my system with my Netgear through the attached ethernet leads radiating. It was a real PITA to pinpoint it.

As far as which socket to use, you can use any as most devices these days autoconfigure.

Simon

Cheers Chris.

Simon, you're making me paranoid! I've just installed a GS105 right under my rack (albeit on a separate ring main) in order to get a wired ethernet connection between my Unitiserve and Superuniti. I thought I was being clever, using a linear power supply on the US and putting it on the rack near the SU, and to my cloth-ears, it does sound much better than it did over WiFi.

From what you say, I might be able to improve things further if I can connect this without the GS105? Also, to what extent might any problems be mitigated by careful choice of ethernet cable?

Chris

Thank you Simon. I only used the Netgear GS105 as an example. There is a topic running at the moment, where the GS105 is mentioned. I haven't a clue what's good or bad! I definitely wouldn't want to introduce anymore dirt into the system, than is already there!

You might want to take careful note of my comment about introducing a SMPS into the system, especially in view of Simon's comment above. I'm sure he understands the issue far better than I do.

Simon I am going to disagree with you on this one.  You are spooking the horses over Netgear SMPS noise & I don't think its justified. The noise you claim with Netgear switches may have been true with older units, I don't know but am willing to accept it,  but I believe they've solved whatever problems they had,  by not least an SMPS mnftr change a while back.

Also - for it may be worth - Netgear GS105/108 switches are recommended by by both Linn & Lejonklou with its golden eared obsessives & their in-depth testing.   I doubt that Linn,  but more especially Lejonklou would let this recommendation stand if there was a noise problem.  

As you know I ended up installing a lot of ferrite around my SMPS power strip,  but have yet to either find a way or been able to detect any audible noise or effect with or without ferrite.  

Tell me how please.      

Hi again Meerkat,   whatever you make of this thread is up to you,  like I said before "if it ain't broke" has something going for it.   

However to support my previous thread that a switch will work better .......  the following was posted about a month ago by Phil Harris .......  https://forums.naimaudio.com/to...77#41551098140585677

Edited bullet points ....... 

……….  what I normally try to do is to *KEEP* the ISP supplied router …………… I *ALWAYS* try to take a single feed from the ISP router down to a network switch and feed the rest of the network from there  ……

He also says … I tend to suggest the NetGear 'ProSafe' switches ... which is what the GS105 you mention is.

Hi Erik, yes trial and error!  I was getting RFI radiating from  the Ethernet leads. This was coupling into my FM aerial coax. I heard this as a very very faint 'birdie' type sounds on my tuner (different Naim and non Naim tuners) and heard it most on non heavily compressed stations like BBC R3 and BBC R4.

I tried many things to diagnose - I felt it was data related by the warble style. I thought it was originally the RDS breaking through. When I accidentally switched off my GS105 which I had been using for media duties in the living room - voila the noise went. I tried to reroute the leads - but the breakthrough still occurred. I suspected the SMPS - and didn't have a linear PSU with the correct voltage to replace it with.

I replaced the switch with a Cisco 2960 with inbuilt SMPS - and the problem went away - and subjectively my streaming audio was better - but this was less clear cut.

Mike might be correct in as far as my GS105 was about 12 months old at the time,  and so newer devices might have improved PSUs - or mine could have been faulty.

I was also aware at that time from my professional world of noisy Netgear SMPS affecting ADSL modem performance - so I concluded it may have been more likely a type issue rather than a faulty sample - but I cant prove that.

Chris - if there is common mode noise from a data switch - the chances are this noise will radiate from most Ethernet leads - perhaps reduced to some extent by a lead with an overall screen that has some soft of low pass filter / inductive load. I couldn't eliminate using ferrite chokes on the leads.

Simon

Simon

Thanks for reminding me of this discussion.  David, I amend my answer.  If the cost of a Netgear ProSafe is in the budget . . . you can't go wrong (the ole' double-negative) getting the switching duty away from the ISP supplied router.  (To be realistic, the cost is relatively low!)

Largely on advice from the forum I have recently installed a GS105 and use it with a custom hifi cables dc1 psu (originally powering the router itself) to replace the smps. I also replaced my existing vortexbox appliance with an smaller SSD version at the same time so unfortunately I can t tell which contributed to the very significant and unexpected increase in detail and vitality when streaming flac to the NDX. For the £18 I paid for the GS105 has to be worth a try..     

So you say that the switch on a multi-lan port router actually works as a hub and not a switch? So lan data goes to all ports rather than the intended port? So if you have devices on ports 1,2,3,4 and Device 1 (port 1) sends data to Device 2 (port 2) then ports 3 and 4 get the data?

Well I've just done a simple test in the office here and I can confirm that the switch in a router really IS a switch.

Experiment:-

Equipment:

PC Port 1

Test device Port 2

PC with Wireshark Port 3

Test:

PC Port 2 pings Device Port 2

PC Port 3 logs ALL network traffic on Port 3

Result:

After some initial broadcast packets (which would get through ANY switch) the Port 3 PC shows ZERO packets of data being received.

Conclusion:

Switch in a router really IS a switch and data is NOT replicated at all ports.

Further checking on the specs for switches. I just checked the specs on three switches from cheapo SOHO up to top of the range SMART switch.

El Cheapo:

Backbone 1.6Gb/s

Throughput 1.19Mpps

Middle of the Range:

Backbone speed 20Gb/s

Throughput 14.88Mpps

Top Spec:

Backbone speed 56Gb/s

Throughput 35.7Mpps

I'd guess that the switches in most domestic routers would be at the el-cheapo end of the range. The other issue is that most domestic routers will have 10/100 lan ports but a top of the range switch will have gig lan ports. The lan port on your Naim player is 100meg so the GE lan port on the switch isn't so important but the cache on the GE switch will be larger than that on the 100meg switch so this might be a factor.

Mike, all the combined ADSL router switches I have come across in recent years do indeed have a switch. Hubs which is what you are describing are rare, and I can't remember the last I saw a hub in a broadband router.

The complication I think on some broadband router switches is that the switch plane is software controlled and is sometimes linked with the firewall capability, and I suspect where the issues creep in.

As far as consumer switches go, and what broadband router switches should  do, is ensure the broadcast data and the multicast data is sent to all ports other than the initiating port. If the switch doesn't replicate this data correctly, things like device discovery will start to fail.

Other than that the mac  address table in the switch plane will send data out on the correct port, once the port is correctly identified.

Therefore if the broadband router switch is supporting discovery correctly and UPnP discovery and updates then I suspect it is sufficiently capable for our applications.

Simon

Hi Simon & solwisesteve,   thanks for the information,  but I am not persuaded;   Advice from various sources including Naim, Linn, Cyrus & others including outside audio,  plus my own experience make this so. I am 100% sure some routers do function well as an audio LAN hub, but speaking in general terms inferring all will do so is liable to misguide people with routers that do not.

My own experience was I originally hooked up my BT HH3 as a LAN hub (NDX-NAS) & whilst it seemed to work OK, it failed alarmingly after running about 4 albums, wireless & streaming sudenly failed & I found the case was remarkably hot, so much so I was surprised it kept its shape.   I installed a switch & that complexly solved the problem, plus the SQ was improved.  That one event alone convinced me about the limitations of such routers.  

tbh the BT HH3 does have a reputation as being a cheap piece of junk and the power supply is as noisy as hell!

I think you issue here was a faulty switch on the BT HH3.

Well, if I wasn't confused when I started this thread, I am now!!

Simon is so knowledgeable, I just wish I understood what he's talking about.  

Mike: I read Phil's comments...He appears to +1 the Netgear. I had a HH3 when I had my Fibre Optic Broadband. I have to say, I didn't have any problems with it. I used to have my UnitiServe connected to it. I only got rid of the HH because I was paying for super fast Broadband, which I didn't need.

The Netgear, or something similar, is the price of a Friday night curry. So not a lot to lose really, if it doesn't work out. I'll bin it!

I have used both GS108v3 and GS605v4, on supplied SMPS and TeddyPardo PSUs, and in local switch vs remote switch configs. In my situation with a Unitiserve into DAC/XPSDR I can disconnect the network to establish a 'clean baseline

the GS108v3 introduced a distinctive metallic timbre into string instruments regardless of PSU and siting and has been set aside.

the GS605v4 was better OOB, less 'harmonic' distortion but still a bit 'mushy'. A ferrite on its PSU mains cable and choke on its DC output cable improved it significantly. I am still running my upstream switch like this on separate spur. When I had the second GS605v4 next to US on a separate outlet I preferred this for a while over the TeddyPardo, but I now think this was related to that mains feed and earthing.

the GS605v4 next to US was very significantly improved by moving the TeddyPardo PSU onto the tail end of the hifi spur rather than on a separate spur. The new owner of Statement #001 confirms his current 500 system sounds more musically complete keeping the 'local digital' in a carefully stacked hierarchy on the one mains feed too, using a NetStreams switch.

BTW a significant improvement has also come from replacing my Uniden DECT phone with a Siemens Gigaset which can disable idle transmission in its ECO+ mode, and is reputed to have low-EMI SMPS. My wife noticed the clear drop in 'hardness' on an A/B test, along with an opening up of the music.