Would I benefit from adding a switch?

40 below, thanks for the interesting post, you seem to expierience RFI like I do . If you can get your mitts on an 8 port Cisco 2960 (any variant) I'd be interested to hear your comments on SQ.

Simon

Ahha,  we can agree on something  !!!!   :-))

+1 for Siemens Gigaset on ECO/ECO+ for reducing hardness.   

My phone with the main base unit is next to the wireless router & 25mm of veneered oak to the GS105v4 & all are powered off the same power strip so is ideally located.  

I also have this area seriously overloaded with ferrite & have convinced myself it has cleaned up the SQ to the point its hard to improve without going to linear PSU.

Power strip has 120ohm at both ends,  all SMPS 12vDC cables have 4 turns thru 80ohm,  phone & broadband (phone line) also have 4 turns thru 80ohm.         

Final question - are you aware of the changes between GS105v3 & v4.

I understand it included a chip change & a new manufacturer SMPS 

I think what you're seeing here is the problem with cheap crappy 'plug-top' power supplies. All switching type plug top PSUs chuck out mains noise; some are worse that others. We buy these types of power supplies, and I can speak from a position of some knowledge here when I say that 99% of the ones in common use are garbage. It's bad enough that the DC output is flaky but worse than this is the rubbish thrown onto the mains. You can use a couple of ferrites on the DC cable to smooth out a lot of the noise on the DC element (and my advice is locate one ferrite as close to the PSU as possible to stop it radiating out of the DC cable and a second close to the equipment) but the only way to stop the mains side is to use a filtering mains strip but DON'T plug the mains for your sensitive HiFi into the same strip. If you want to go OTT then you need two filtered strips; one for the crappy stuff and one for the HiFi stuff.

Hi Simon & Mike

Simon:

from your recommendation I looked closely at a C2960 but was a little off-put by further $770 after already buying the linear supply!  At that time I was running 10m CAT6 to remote switch, so $50 for a GS605 to try the Linn-recommended 'local switch' config was first worth a punt and enabled A/B comparison.  Also opened up economical cable options, local C-Stream immediately proving its worth

Mike:

+1 for the Gigaset, it's a winner.  Its been installed two days, and tonight my wife remarked 'gee, the music is sounding good' while preparing dinner.  I was previously risking divorce by surreptitiously unplugging the phones for serious music sessions....  its tolerably close, and has reduced incentive to go further (for now!).  

Like you I have loaded up ferrites on both AC and DC sides of my remote cluster, also have the GS605 chassis grounded which helps.

I seem to have the same (regional) smps supplied on my GS108v3 and GS605v4 and doesn't account for the very audible difference, also on the linear supply.  From PCB photos, the various switch models all have varying internal on-board smps for voltage reduction.  I'm suspecting newer chipsets or 'eco-ethernet' improvements may account for reduced current draw or noise generated.  One reason I went for GS605v4 as alternative in local market was GS105v3.

Steve & Mike, I also have every other noise source in the house filtered at source with ferrites - fridge, microwave, dishwasher, alarm clock, chargers etc....

I don't think that adding ferrites onto the DC power side of the plug-top power supplies will do anything to stop mains born noise. I'm thinking the clock, chargers etc... here.

Good stuff 40 below

The attached pic is the SMPS supplied with my GS105v4,  

The SMPS on a GS105v3 that I had on a loan is a different shape & size,  smaller & almost square shaped. The GS105v4 version is a very large case.

Whoops   I have omitted to mention that my SMPS's to switch, broadband & phone that are mounted on the power strip,  and also the separate supply to Synology,  is via my UPS - APC BK350EI - 

with its integral surge protection.   

Chaps - you're obviously not taking this RFI stuff seriously. Might need a bit of acoustic treatment though... 

For the benefit of myself, and others that are not as savvy as some of the members on the forum...This 'Noise' that everyone is talking about, is this something that is heard over the music, while no music is playing, or can only be read/measured on a computer, or other electronic device?

40 below, yes if you haven't a Cisco 2960 available or to borrow it might not be easy to do a comparison. I bought mine used from a well known auction site, and for this sort of use only need the cheapest IOS.

But Mike seems to have some interesting research on Netgear switches, and indeed the later versions might have significantly improved.

Mr Meerkat, other than RFI breakthrough I have had on my tuner and on my TT in the past, the interference to me is not directly audible, but can make the audio sound less flowing or a little metallic/brittle.

Simon

How did you break into my house without leaving any evidence?

Hi Meerkat,

I have a short piece of baroque orchestral music where the harpsichord is at a fairly low level,  In some parts of the piece it's easy to hear the harpsichord continuo, in others it's almost hidden in the rest of the orchestra.  It's easy for me to tell if there's significant RFI getting into my system as it causes a background clutter / confusion that masks the harpsichord.  The more often I can hear the harpsichord the less RFI I have.

Please note: You may not get the same effects in your system.

Simples.

(sorry, it had to be done)

I'm now beginning to understand ...The reason I asked if the noise was audible to the human ear, is because of the hum from my HiCap DR, which is pretty loud at times. (Let's not get into transformer hum debate again!) I wasn't sure if RFI noise could be as audible as transformer hum. Are you saying it's not the RFI that's audible, but that it blocks/masks other sounds? (Harpsichord )

I wish getting the perfect sound was as simples! 

Hi Meerkat,

Unfortunately, the effects of RFI depend on the system concerned and the perception depends on the ears listening to the effects.  Often one or more of these can be heard...

Hardness or 'glassiness', particularly at mid to high frequencies.

Increased noise floor.

Confusion / congestion particularly in the mid range and sometimes at high frequencies.

Increase in listening fatigue.

Distortion at high frequencies.

Masking of detail.

There may also be others.

In my case, I know that my system is affected by reducing the discernible detail.  I also can easily work out when I can hear the harpsichord and when I can't.  So for me, that gives a good test that's more reproducible than the others.  For you something else may be a better test.

Thanks for that reply Huge, at last it kinda makes sense. Cheers!

I bought a switch and installed it - GS105. Seems like a solid little thing for a few quid, and it took one minute to install. Can't say the sound is any different, but it may be offering a slightly more reliable connection between the NAS and Qute, I guess because there's much less noise.

So now I have a router upstairs connected via wi-fi to an extender downstairs, connected via cheap Cat6 to a dedicated switch, connected by Audioquest cables to the NAS and Qute. All seems to work well, and iRadio is rock solid too.

For a small investment, at least there's no downside as far as I can see.

Thanks for your reply Solid Air...

It may be taking this thread in a different direction, and I know it has been discussed dozens of times on the Streaming Forum, but you mention the 'Audioquest' Ethernet cables from your switch. Did you buy cheap one's originally, then upgrade them? My Ethernets are cheap (£14 & £6). They are flat, screened, Cat 6's. One is 10 metres long, which connects my NAS to my Sky Btoadband Router, then a 3 metre cable that connects my ND5 XS to the router.

It's not really practical to start demoing 10 metre Ethernet cables, but I now wonder if I've gone too cheap, as many members pay a lot more for their Ethernets. I guess what I'm asking, is it pointless getting a switch (Netgear or Cisco) then using cheap cables? Does it defeat the object?

No not really they are addressing different things. So called audiophile Ethernet leads seem to concentrate more in shielding and quality of the balanced twists - thereby reducing the chance of any induced or emitted RFI.

Switches - although can be a source of RFI from the mains or radiating Ethernet leads with common mode interference ( that is all wires in the lead and possibly even the shields are radiating at the same time) - have the main advantage of allowing a more effective network without many long runs of cable and also circumvents issues that some have with certain broadband routers that don't effectively switch the necessary data types for UPnP and multimedia.

Simon

I am not sure there is much of a difference in Ethernet cables once you are at Cat6 - some would say there is no difference, others would say the opposite.   (I heard a diff between a selection of Cat7's v a Cat5 freebee, but TBH could not detect much between each of the Cat7's)

You might consider a punt on your 3m section to try it yourself,  but I would make the decision on the switch first as that will probably bring more to the setup than a new cable anyhow.

Now there's a topic- do audiophile ethernet cables make any difference? Some say yes, some say no.

TBH I sat on the fence. I bought Audioquest Forest cables (bottom of their range I think) on the basis that they're not all that expensive and are well made. I figured I could get most of the benefit of the exotic cables for a sensible price (maybe £25?). I also figured that, since I'm using a fairly basic router (and now switch) that the internal wiring in the switch probably wasn't audiophile quality, so why go further? I haven't done any experimentation with other options, just fit and forget basically.

I used cheapo (£3) Cat6 back to the router because that's not in the NAS pathway and I'm not so bothered about iRadio SQ. Frankly, it's probably the same stuff anyway.

Like I say, I haven't tried other options, so for all I know there is a big difference with better cables, but I still think I'd rather spend the money on music.

Oh, in previous threads that subject's been covered at extreme length.

Interesting comment(s)

My SMPS(s) DC outputs are all loaded with ferrite.  The switch 12vDC has a 120ohm with 5 passes (cable turns around it) at the SMPS end & a smaller 3 pass at the switch end.  

But my main point (question) is that all the SMPS's are feed thru a UPS - 

APC CS350 - this has a common mode choke with the usual TVR & X+Y caps immediately after the power inlet & although this is intended to suppress inlet mains noise,  I suspect it will also suppress SMPS switch noise from feeding into the mains.  But probably most significant is the UPS power outlet has a 1/1 isolation transformer which is probably an effective EMI/RFI barrier from both directions.  

Do you agree or how do you see it in EMI/RFI terms  ?   

I have a very similar arrangement to Mike-B.

The improvements to SQ as against the 'bare' set-up are substantial.  They are much greater than the difference between a Uniti 2 and a SU, or to put it another way, they are more than a full step on the Naim quality ladder.