Would I benefit from adding a switch?

Hi Bart, Seagate Central, i have not managed to find a backup utility of the NAS (only to the NAS from the PC). I know...cheap NAS, running Twonky only etc... but I was just curious that's why I posted on this thread...anyway my file collection is still small so even the current back up mode is not prohibitive.

I just map a network drive and run a command script that uses XCopy.

Anyway...I would like to get a swich, but not yet decided on which make. I would also like to upgrade my cheap Ethernet cables with one's similar to those mentioned on this thread by forum members. I don't mind paying for quality cables from my ND5 XS to the switch, and then to the router. My problem is, the 10 metre cable from my Qnap NAS to the router/switch. A 10 metre Audioquest or similar, to the router/switch would be outside my price range.

Originally, the NAS was next to my music system/router, but the fan on the NAS was so noisy I moved it into another room. I have looked at buying a fanless NAS, but I'd be looking at £300-£400. Would it be pointless replacing those Ethernet cables that connect the router and switch to the ND5 XS, but then keep the cheapo cable connecting the NAS? Is there a compromise?

I would not replace the 10m,  

Unlike analogue cables with variable CL&R & materials which do affect some parts of the sound, ethernet does not.  If it was a cheapo Cat5 that might not meet the required spec,  then yes it would be worth a change.   If it was UTP & passed thru an area of high noise and/or power cables,  again it might be worth it.  But I believe you said this section was shielded flat Cat6,  so I would leave it & get the other stuff sorted first - thinking bang for buck & that fancy Cat's might be a lot of bucks for not much bang.  

I agree with Mike get the basicsl right. I would put the NAS and UPnP server, if seperate, well away from your music room. Put it it in the study, or under the stairs etc.

As far as switches I can only say the best I have used for SQ are Cisco 2960 but they are not cheap and in all honestly fiunctioanlly overkill for the vast majority I suspect  on this forum. Mike says the later Netgears have improved... so worth exploring if the very latest models IMO.

If you want to experiment with cables, get a long run of Cat 5e (Cat 5 are  mostly obsolete now for ethernet and best avoided, however its ideal for good telephone extension cables carrying ADSL frequencies ) and join a couple of meters of your favourite boutique ethernet cable before your network player. RJ45 back to back joiners to link the ethernet cables together are a matter of pennies from various online sites.

Simon

Hi again meerkat,  +1 wot Simon sez  (as usual)

I did mean to put more meat on my post this morning but had to get domestic stuff done. 

Keep in mind that Naim streamers operate around 30MHz & are effectively Cat5. So gigabit parts & cables are rated far beyond the requirements for streaming. The rated transmission frequencies (bandwidth) of Cat5 & 5e are 100MHz. Cat6 is 250MHz, Cat6a is 500MHz, Cat7 is 600MHz & Cat7A 1000MHz.   Cat6a & higher are screened.

As I understand it; your NAS is 10m away from the router & ND5 closeby. So it makes sense (initially) to try the switch in the ND5 & router area;  and as you will need an extra cable to link router to switch, why not get whatever fancy Ethernet to make the link between switch & ND5 & keep the flat Cat6 for the router-switch link (for testing anyway).

That said - if possible avoid having the switch & router SMPS's on the same power supply as the ND5 & other Naim stuff - but if you are forced into that I would recommend putting the SMPS's on a Tacima CS929, this has a common mode choke filter & although intended to block mains-borne noise, it will work in both directions & block any SMPS noise.

+1 each Simon and Mike

I almost thought I had nothing further to add (now that would be a change wouldn't it!), but then I realised...

Don't forget it's also worth trying some clip on ferrite chokes on the Ethernet, mains and analogue cables where they enter your audio components and on all the SMPS (both mains and DC sides).  There are replies to other people back in this thread giving the info.

As I understand it; your NAS is 10m away from the router & ND5 closeby. So it makes sense (initially) to try the switch in the ND5 & router area;  and as you will need an extra cable to link router to switch, why not get whatever fancy Ethernet to make the link between switch & ND5 & keep the flat Cat6 for the router-switch link (for testing anyway).

That said - if possible avoid having the switch & router SMPS's on the same power supply as the ND5 & other Naim stuff.

Mike...Thank you for the info on frequencies, didn't realise that. As Simon suggests, my Qnap NAS is on it's own, under the stairs in another room. Not ideal, but my server is 'Wonky Twonky' pre installed on the NAS. Which has actually behaved it self since it's last software update. The 10 metre run is Cat6 flat shielded. My Naim system has it's own dedicated radial circuit, and separate CU.

Huge: Next time I'm in Maplin, I'll get some chokes for my cables and mains leads. Or, I could get some Artichokes in Tesco!

Seriously though, thanks everyone for your kind advice.

Yes

Probably no gain with speaker cables

Do put them on any cables connected to SPMS though

I notice there are lot's of posts with people advising fitting to ferrite's onto cables with high frequency AC signals going down them like LAN cables. Take care with this... A ferrite which is tuned to the wrong frequencies will clip the sharp edges on the wave forms going down the cable. tbh I can't see how that can ever be a good thing on a network signal! Another thing.... Shielded lan cables are of limited use unless one end of the shield (one end ONLY) is taken to earth. If you don't earth the shield then the beneficial effects are greatly reduced. If it's not earthed then any RF/voltage picked up by the shielding is simply equalised down the cable. Okay this is better than nothing but earthing the shield properly would be far superior.

Solwisesteve, just to clarify, what people including myself are ferrite chokes to clamp around cables. This adds inductance to the combined cable relative to ground, and is the only way of impeding RF. It's equivalent of adding a resistor for DC.

The inductance is added to all cables or to the shield and so impedes common mode RF currents. This does not specifically impede the signal RF current, as that current only exists within the potentials with the cable itself. That is across twisted pairs or between shield and core.

Therefore as long as the cable carries the signal (s) within the balanced cores  or unbalanced shielded core there is no issue with a ferrie choke clamp affecting the signal.

if you split / broke your cable up and choked only one one half of the signal path with respect to the other half within the cable , then yes the choke would act as a low pass filter to the signal current, but this is quite seperate to what we are talking about.

BTW earthing a cable does not impede RFI, unless the earth is at 1/4 wavelength boundary of the source given frequency. In practice RF noise is collection of many frequencies and so such a solution is not usually effective. This is often a favourite exam question in RF engineering 

Simon

Re ethernet shield earth,  all Naim streamers have earthed ethernet ports & are connected to protective ground.  And that leads to the risk of unknowingly having multiple earths on a LAN.   

In my system the switch has RJ45/E ports so is crossed linked & router/hub has insulated ports. 

But I assumed my Synology NAS with its RJ45/E was not earthed as it was supplied by an in-line SMPS - wrong - I found that 0vDC is a direct connection to earth & that L&N - AC/DC & V-Reg is all going on above that plane with the 0vDC connecting to E at the end of that.   I found a very handy M-F UTP connector that plugged into the RJ45 & even more handy it was 90 degree angled & tidied up cable entry very nicely.    

Mike I think you nicely draw attention some of the pitfalls and considerations of using shielded ethernet cables.

Of course un shielded twisted pair (UTP) has no such issues.

Simon

PS your frequency bandwidth of Cat cable was interesting. However perhaps to those following on the forum who are using their Cat cable for ethernet  ( I suspect the vast majority) the carrier frequencies for 100Mbps ethernet twisted pairs are 31MHz. Unfortunately I don't know  the effective carrier frequencies of 1Gbps - they use a different encoding and more balanced pairs... But to your list it must be less than 100MHz, as Cat 5e supports 1Gbps at 100 metres.

Yep I see that now.. :-)

Rather naively I assumed the lan port on the streamer was unshielded - I should have paid more attention when plugging the lan cable in!

Hi Scott...Yes, it is the version from the Qnap apps. Version: 7.2.8. And yes, folder view is still there, which is what I use. I have to say, this latest software runs a lot better than the previous one's.

Are your album tracks displayed and played alphabetically? Mine are in Folder View, unless I re tag them with XLD. Other than that, 'Wonky Twonky' is behaving it self!

Hi Mike...I have noticed in your setup, that you are using a mixture of Supra and Audioquest Pearl Ethernet cables. Was there any particular reason for that? The reason I ask, is that I'm definitely going to buy a switch, and also replace my cheapo £5.99 cables. I was looking at the Audioquest Cinnamon, but then noticed the ones you're using.

I tried the Supra for the long run from the router to the switch, and it's very good. The trouble was it's thick and sky blue, so looked horrible. I now use Cinnamon throughout the system and it makes a big difference. It's nice and thin and has really high quality plugs, unlike the Supra, which has plastic bits that look like they may break.

Why would you use a separate psu for your network switch?

Hi Meerkat,  I chose Supra Cat7+ after a listening session with friends on a Linn DC system.  We compared it with his installed AQ Cinnamon & some borrowed Pearl & a no-name Cat5.  

The Pearl was an audible improvement after the Cat5,  Cinnamon improved on that & then I felt although very similar, the Supra had the edge on detail. That said, (to my ears) the differences vary from small to whatever in your imagination; you might detect slightly better/worse HF/LF, less/more detail and whatever.  

I have Supra Cat7+ from NAS-Switch-NDX - 1.5m & 5m.

The AQ Pearl is wireless Hub-Switch,  I needed a new cable as I originally had 5m of Cat5 (freebee) coiled up in the cabinet that houses the switch & NAS,  I selected Pearl Cat700 as its a made to length item & I needed 1.2m.   Its also Cat7 & its shield (my OCD) would be beneficial routed around power & other cables & with Cat7 it gives shielded ethernets throughout the whole network. 

Per HH -  agreed Supra is an ugly SOAB,  but I don't see it as its hidden one way or another.  The plugs are not as bad as HH implies, they are simple/basic & not as fancy looking, just like me, robustly utilitarian. 

Mike - it's the plastic clippy bit that is flimsy. I have to poke my cable through a conduit behind the fireplace, and the plastic bit got stuck and nearly broke off. Whereas the AQ cables have nice metal bits. The Supra looks like it's been knocked up in the shed, but works well nonetheless.

HH -  I can see the problem with the conduit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2AdTtezbxJg

Not exactly a shed  

HH. Are the Cinnamons flat? I couldn't tell by the photo on the AQ website. Did you not try the Pearl and Forest cables?

What the cables look like is not so much an issue, as my cables are concealed in 'D line' trunking around the skirting board.