Would I benefit from adding a switch?

Would love it if Naim just came out and recommended switch, cables as well as a topology - or some dealer did that.

Another avatar MangoMonkey,  we can't keep up !!!

+1 about Naim recommending LAN & other system parts

Not sure about the effects on Linn systems because they have Class D and/or internal SMPS. As I understand it Linn SMPS is highly optimised for each unit & do not generate much if any line noise.

I believe that the noise that SMPS units in general (can) cause is heard in various forms,  distortion & hash in streamed material & similar if not more with radio.  SMPS power adaptor noise (per this threads subject) from the same makes of switches, routers & NAS units as we use with Naim systems, is transmitted down/from ethernet cables & into the mains, therefore the Linn streaming & FM units will also have the same (potential) noise problems as do all hifi systems. 

I have to believe that not all SMPS are created equal.  And that Linn would not put a "noisy" ps in their 'stuff.'

Mike...have I stuffed up?! One of the reasons that I chose this unit, is the price, and because the power connection and Ethernet connections were in the back. Of course though, the object of this exercise is quality. if I need to change my order, it needs to be done ASAP...what say you?

Mike...UPDATE. I have just looked at the connections on the back of my Sky router. They are yellow plastic! So does that mean the earth continuity was broken anyway? 

REE-lax Meerkat,  not stuffed up

A full interconnected shielded ethernet network must only be earthed at ONE point,  the other ends must be left open (not earth connected)

With your new switch you can easily use any benefits associated with shielded cables without worrying about any unwanted grounds

Your ND5 has its protective earth connected to its RJ45/E shrouded ethernet port & that will carry the shielded ethernet thru as far - but not connected to - the switch.   

From switch to router it does not really matter if the ethernet is shielded or not as both ends are not RJ45/E - (BTW I don't think any routers have RJ45/E,  mine doesn't for sure)

From switch to NAS if shielded it may well be that your NAS has RJ45/E & will be connected to earth thru the SMPS & that will earth that section of ethernet.   (take a look on the NAS, does it have a RJ45/E)   If so you have 2 separate individually earthed ethernet cables that are (correctly) not interconnected at the switch.  

Re unearthed shielded ethernet sections - a shielded cable will have lower inter TP & alien crosstalk than will unshielded.  It will be most effective if correctly earthed,  but will still function OK if not earthed.  

Phew!!! Cheers Mike, for taking the time to explain that. Feel better now!! 

Just an update... Had to redo things to install the new Q4EVO rack so it was an ideal time to redo all the power and lan cables. Okay shielded lan cables fitted (two, one from ND5 and one from NAS). Ferrites on every single DC and mains cable in loose loops. Can I hear the difference? Well, tbh, I can't tell... :-( I mean my listening room is so compromised at the moment due to the inclusion of a 7ft Christmas tree (which has pushed other furniture into the listening arena) that I can't actually get to properly sit down and concentrate on the music. For the next few weeks it looks like the HiFi will be background music. So, to a casual listen, no difference but, as I say, a more careful and detailed audition might be required.

Steve,

I think your thoughts emphasize the value of changing a single system variable at a time. I go slow and like to evaluate any change with a variety of source material in the long run. I too have applied several ferrite chokes to my system and am uncertain of their value, though they are inexpensive. One approach would be to listen for a while without making other changes and then remove the chokes. That's what I intend to do.

Yep... sounds a sensible plan. Get Christmas out of the way and the listening room (SWMBO calls it the dining room - slight element of conflict there) back to normal and then get some time to sit down and have a proper listen.

The problem I find with expecting an audible change with ferrites is thats its not audible,  at least not such as we have with an IC or speaker cable change.

Ferrite is reducing noise starting from about 10MHz up to >500MHz. The noise, if present, I understand is affecting some underlying aspects of the audio band replay such as clarity & detail.  

I have spent the price of a HiRes download & overloaded my SMPS AC & DC with ferrite,  plus I have a ferrite on the end of each Cat7 (not so convinced about ferrite with shielded ethernet)  & I just sleep easy knowing there is not much more I can do.   

As Mike says, you won't hear RFI directly, rather you may hear the way that it upsets the audio components.  In my case what I hear is a background clutter in complex signals which the ferrites remove.  This allows me to hear quiet instruments in amongst others and gives a better representation of timbres.  The syctem just sounds 'cleaner'.

The other thing is that you may be lucky enough to live in a area with very little RFI floating around.  The only ways to find out are:  1 use some very expensive instruments (which can be hired for a considerable cost) or  2 buy a load of ferrites (at lower cost!) and try them.  If you hear no change then you're lucky.  If you'd hired the instrument to find out, it'd still have cost you more to get the same information!

The last point is that you won't have a definitive answer until you have ferrites on all the cables entering/leaving all your audio components.  To use an analogy, think of the RFI as something in the air that gets in wherever a cable enters, and the Ferrite is a sealing grommet round the cable.

Mike,

I use a mix of STP cables, Cat7 (C-Stream) and Cat6a (generic), with the C-Stream from the switch to the ND5 XS.  Removing the ferrite from that definitely makes things worse for my setup; so much so that there are parts in some orchestral works that I can no longer hear when that ferrite is removed.  I specifically tested it to see if it was necessary on STP cables.

From the effects I hear and things that others have posted I believe that I live in an area of high RFI, and this could account for why I need ferrites even on properly shielded cables.

Do I get RFI if I attend a concert? There has to be oodles of electronic clutter in a concert hall. Are the electricity supplies to concert halls 'clean'  (am really thinking of, say, the Albert Hall) and do they use feerrite rings on their various leads? Come to think of it, I wonder if Clapton insists on £600 Naim leads for his amplifiers and guitars at his Albert Hall concerts?

Seriously, am just trying to contextualise the issue.I guess if you attended a live concert with non electrical instruments then this might be the case. However, there would still almost certainly be background clutter generated by lighting, heating, air conditioning and even the inconvenient human beings. I do appreciate that there can be and is interference that may distort audio equipment but not, hopefully, at the price ranges asked by Naim and other high end manufacturers, I would expect that, particularly in the digital age, only very pure 1s and 0s would be reaching my ears other than DAC colouring. And, by definition, the recording itself would almost certainly contain some inherent RFI, whether that reproduction be analogue or digital. 

andarkian,

Professional audio recording equipment is even more expensive than much of Naim's gear, and usually has higher levels of RFI protection.

The 1's are 1's argument has been refuted so many times I'm not even going to bother.

And RFI is out of band, so, no it's not recorded.

To put some perspective here, the ferrite cores etc are just icing on an already very nice cake - not a mandatory addition to a system. It's a tweak that will vary depending on a number of factors from the local environment to the system itself and the listener. 

If your system sounds broken then adding ferrite cores all over the house ain't going to fix it but if you've dealt with the usual issues of system matching, room problems, decent stands and tidy cabling then it's a little tweak that may be worth trying 

I tried the same, removed the ferrite close to the NDX port & could not detect a change. I got the impression that with the Supra Cat7a (S/FTP)  ferrite does not have that much effect.  

Compared to changing the Cat7a to a no-name Cat5 (UTP) it lost detail & added a layer of haze (for want of a better word), adding a ferrite to the Cat5 reduced the haze.

Whatever,  I'm not changing anything & like I said I sleep easy - I'm dun

James,

Absolutely.

Mike,

I think the main difference here may be environmental arising from differences in the RFI present in our homes; these could either differences in the intensity of the RFI or differences in the frequency profile of the RFI.

And that's the point that others may need to consider: it's not just to do with the equipment you have, but also the environment in which it operates.

I've also achieved what I need - so I'm also dun.

(OK, so we're now both a delicate shade of greyish-brown!)

Huge,

"The 1's are 1's argument has been refuted so many times I'm not even going to bother."

Do you know something about digital data that I don't? If I could not rely on the data presented on my screen from my bank or stockbroker I would have real cause for concern. I have no problem with analogue reproduction i.e. vinyl records and am quite convinced that there are all sorts of potential for interference or colouring of the pressed disk from the groove to the loudspeaker.

However, '1's and '0s' really puzzle me. I worked with computers most of my career from programming to implementing large scale business systems and any time the '1's and '0's did not match up the result was usually pretty fatal. And if RFI is out of band on recording then why worry about it at all since, as I said, I would expect Naim, or whoever, to have provided plenty of insulation against RFI with their expensive equipment in the data's short trip from DAC to loudspeaker. In my Muso's case am hoping that by definition, it being all in one box, that this would be RFI free. Come to think of it, I guess the Muso is slightly academic to this discussion.

Are you absolutely sure your convictions are matched by real science? After all, I would be happy to sell you some multicoloured bits and bytes at very reasonable prices. Gold ones, as you might expect, command a premium price.

andarkian,

The "fish" you are towing seems to be metallic.

Ha! Ha! your use of words seem as obscure as your representation of science. Am hoping that my stockbroker's bits and bytes are genuine today as they paint a very positive picture for me, but maybe the results could have been bettered with ferrite rings. You aren't Eric Cantona behind that mask, are you?

Andarkian, binary levels, so called 1 and 0's are different voltage levels. The fact that binary voltage levels can be used to convey serial digital bit streams which can be then packaged into nibbles,bytes words etc is not in doubt..  At least not to me. Although transmission can corrupt data and as you have worked with computers and no doubt networks you will know there are many methods using varying degrees of redundancy to identify and recover corrupted data..

However the physical process of producing and conveying rapidly varying  binary voltages produces analogue side effects... And typically in our applications these analogue abstractions occur at radio frequencies. It is these abstractions, artefacts or interference that devices like ferrite chokes mitiagte or address. It has nothing to do with the binary voltages and the logical values they represent. RFI is easier said than done to mitigate and insulate from... even aircraft and space satellites have challenges so why we think our Naim hifi can some how be exempt is slightly beyond me.

Simon

OMG - am on the phone to my bank and stockbroker straight away. You have just shattered 40 years of computing illusion for me. Simon, the electronic voltages are reassembled as '1's and '0's and that's that. If the reassembly process is wrong your eyes and rears will soon let you know. Am happy with DAC colouration, manipulation or whatever you would be happy to term it, but talk of 'abstractions, artefacts and interference' means absolutely '0" to me.

Precisely... It has nought to do with 0. Glad we understand each other 

i do do smile when people don't understand RFI in computers like I am sure we do.. I learnt my lesson as a Computer Engineering undergraduate completing my final year project where I completely underestimated RFI impacting the stability of my main processor board for a discrete image processing application - it was a very salient lesson and not even copious use of ferrite chokes could cure and probably cost me a degree level.

Simon

I humbly defer to your absolute right to play with your HiFi in any which way you wish