New classical composers genii?

Ehh.. Both men were dedicated, concentrated, aware of how good they were in an age when people hadn't yet heard of the joys of cooperative leadership, almost blind / stone deaf in later life, enjoyed but did not abuse recreational substances, and most importantly composed for a piano that hadn't been invented yet?

I think you could safely add Mozart to the Bach, Beethoven duo & personally I would also add Wagner.

Wagner was obviously not as versatile as the other three, but in the field of opera he showed true greatness. No music affects me as deeply as his does.

As for more recent composers, such as Stravinsky, Schoenberg & Bartok; while they are never going to be as popular as Bach or Beethoven, I think they did produce truly great music.

Well there goes my theory. Mozart took himself, by all accounts, less serious than his peers. Certainly than Wagner who must have felt kinship with Beethoven and actually wrote a volume on his older colleague (although apparently it is more about Wagner himself than Beethoven). And Wagner did have a grand piano (on which he composed, amongst others, a transcription of Beethoven's 9th).

With that out of the way, the list might start with the great Renaissance masters (Palestrina, Tallis, De Rore and others), through Dowland, the Scarlattis and Monteverdi, leading to Vivaldi, Buxtehude,  Bach Sr, his sons (CPE in particular), Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert, Schumann, Donizetti, Chopin, Brahms, Liszt, Mussorgsky, Wagner, Verdi, Puccini, Bruckner, Debussy, Sibelius, Scriabin, Rachmaninov, Webern, Ligeti and more recently Mansurian and Gubaidulina. And apologies to the ones I inadvertently omitted. Each of these have composed works that have that intangible quality that defies a ranking, IMO.

EJ

MILES DAVIS

I think its all about context. I don't think we see Miles as a great "composer" - but, as a musician, band leader, performer, certainly equal to any, ever.  And, he expressed himself, at least for posterity, on the LP.  There's no score to Kind of Blue. He didn't need to write it all down, he recorded it. What are the great musicians of today doing? Its a different world, so their genius gets expressed differently. Thank goodness. Bach and Beethoven did the same in their time.

The funny thing about Bach was that he was not remotely popular in his day. The music he wrote was not appreciated as being better than many others of the day, while Telemann was much liked. Beethoven was hard to take and most preferred the likes of Cherubini for one example.

Haydn's fame was enormous, because he published his music in London and Paris as well as at home. Demand his music was a great money turner for the publishers, and Haydn was a shrewd man in his dealings with publishers, even ceding publishing rights in England and France for the same music via different publishers. He understood competition. That he wrote great music still in the repertoire today does not alter the fact that he was much more widely performed than Mozart at the time. Nowadays Mozart is more performed than Haydn, and this partly also a question of fashion as Mozart regarded Haydn as the greatest living composer. Mozart wrote great Operas, Chamber Music and Concertos, while Haydn wrote great Quartets and other chamber music, and particularly the greatest cycle [not only the largest] of Symphonies ever penned. 

All three - Beethoven Haydn, and Mozart revered Bach as the father of their idiom.

In the modern World we shall never again see the kind of eminence among their colleagues these men are now seen to have had. But we must be careful not to judge to decisively yet the music of the 20th.Century. Taking a perspective of centuries as now applied to Beethoven, Bach Haydn and Mozart, it will be possible to accurately assign the tittle genius to some 20th. Century composers, and those who perhaps today are regarded as the most important may welll have slipped from view to a large degree.

In another century who knows who will be regarded as most significant, Elgar, Holst, Delius, Britten, Walton or Tippett. Perhaps Coates or Arnold will gain favour, or perhaps some other unheard of composers will take the palm - specifically here considering UK based composers so as to narrow it down a bit.

After all there are countries even today where Sibelius is nothing but a footnote, but others where he stands by Brahms and Schostakovitch as a composer!

And try buying Elgar's music in France? Almost nothing!

So as yet the dust has not settled on any part of the 20th. Century - musically speaking. 

ATB from George

It is certainly true that the  judgements of previous generations and ours as to what constitutes great music often do not coincide. My favourite example is that Vivaldi's Four Seasons was unknown 100 years ago. Today, it's one of the classical music cliches.

Bach wrote music that was old-fashioned in its day, and was forgotten by the public (if not musicians, who have always loved and used his music) for about a century until Mendelssohn led the rediscovery  of his music.

Another story I like is of Mozart going to a church service in Germany as a young man and being quite bored. The choir then struck up a piece by Bach, whereupon Mozart jumped up and shouted 'at last, someone I can learn something from!'.

Mark

Dear Mark,

As I am sure that you are aware, JS Bach was an immense admirer of the music of Vivaldi and to teach himself something transcribed for his own performance several works by Vivaldi from Orchestral Concerto format to Organ Concerto format - so that solo lines are presented on the same instrument as the Tutti. A remarkable effort ...

These were not direct transcriptions, and Bach inserted counterpoint and reweighing of balances, as well as altering details in the themes, but preserved the harmonic ground-plans and kept the numbers of bars. Given Bach's current reputation it can do Vivaldi no harm for people to know that Bach was so diligent in studying the Italian Master's music.

ATB from George

PS: BWV 596, Organ Concerto in D Minor after Vivaldi ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juKolphjfds

And the original Vivaldi, though in a rather old fashioned performance. Youtube does not quite have everything yet!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juKolphjfds

It is important to realise why Bach would do this. It was for self-education! Not to improve the music!

The best performance I have heard of this was on two accordions in the Old Square in Krakow some eight years ago. They played exactly the notes of Bach's reworking, and the clarity of the instruments without acoustic was brilliant. And those Poles are rather musical, like most East Europeans!

I have a CD recording of this among other Bach Vivaldi transcriptions. 

Marie Claire Alain made a very fine organ recordings of these works in 1979 for Erato, and Trevor Pinnock led estimable modern performances of the Vivaldi original on DG [Archiv] - available a ultra-budget price, and yet priceless.

I have a fascination with Bach that stems from love of his music and personality.

ATB from George

Britten certainly has universal appeal - and, I think, is more likely to be considered a musical genius in the future, on a par with Bartok and Stravinsky. Elgar may be more "English", but his cello concerto is highly rated here - there are four different recordings available at the local FNAC, which, otherwise, is a poor excuse for a record shop (virtually the only record shop for one million people...).

In another century who knows who will be regarded as most significant, Elgar, Holst, Delius, Britten, Walton or Tippett. Perhaps Coates or Arnold will gain favour, or perhaps some other unheard of composers will take the palm - specifically here considering UK based composers so as to narrow it down a bit.

 

After all there are countries even today where Sibelius is nothing but a footnote, but others where he stands by Brahms and Schostakovitch as a composer!

 

And try buying Elgar's music in France? Almost nothing!

Delius?

Holst?

Havagal-Brian?

Vaugham-Williams?

Yes, Elgar is an English musical giant, but compared to Ravel or Debussy?

Walton, however, is international, if less well known! Try the Violin Concerto for a start. 

ATB from George

Yes, Walton of course - the viola concerto by Vengerov and Rostropovitch - but Walton is little-known outside Britain (and America perhaps). I also have a great fondness for a very English composer who will probably never ever be considered a genius - Gerald Finzi.

Less-well known composers can bring as much pleasure as geniuses.

I never thought I would post about Finzi!

He was on the programme of my first ever concert many years ago now.

We played the Dies Natalis - a work set to the words of a Herefordshire poet called Thomas Traherne. Now that really is very English! That was an awfully long time ago, and the concert was with the Hereford String Orchestra under David Briggs [now an internationally famous organist - especially in France -  though then assistant organist at Hereford Cathedral]. I played the bass. In the Hereford Shire Hall. My God this has proven a very revealing thread!

ATB from George

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dF6L7e-tHaw

I hasten to add that this recording was not ours, but the famous one [or completely unknown today!] by Finzi's son for EMI in the 1960s, which I bought afterwards to find out how I should have played my part. I have recording of our effort, and it was rather good even by comparison. We had a tenor from King's College Cambridge Choir for the soloist, and our orchestra managed rather well for a collection of amateurs [and one debutant] ....

The Hereford Shire Hall - an almost perfect Georgean architectural masterpiece, and I was born in Hereford - fifty three years ago. Half Norwegian and yet as English as they come ...

I doubt that anyone will ever get to the same status as those few - considering that every child in the western world starts learning music in their footsteps. 

I also doubt they have the same status in the rest of the world - Would a Mali griot or a Greek rembetis think likewise?

Is "genius" a "game changer"? If yes, then Webern, Cage, Nono or Lachenman (a few from the top of my head), they all managed to open up one's appreciation of music like never before.

I would easily endorse others beyond the "classical" tag too.

An interesting thread!  I guess that because classical music receives a much smaller following than "popular music", contemporary classical composers will never achieve the fame and reputation of the likes of JS Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, Haydn etc.  However amongst modern composers I find the following to be well worth exploring: MacMillan, Part and Rautavaara, though I would be surprised if in the fullness of time their reputations match the "greats" mentioned earlier.

Should we add Thomas Adès (The Tempest) and George Benjamin (Written on Skin) to the list? They are highly regarded in France, and seem to have acquired the status of modern "classical" composers. Indeed, what is a contemporary "classical" composer? Hard to define.

Thomas Ades is certainly one of my favourite contemporary composers. I have a number of CDs of his & as an introduction to his music would recommend one on EMI which has Simon Rattle & the Berlin Phil playing a piece for orchestra called Tevot.

The CD also includes his Violin Concerto & orchestra excerpts from his first opera ‘Powder Her Face’ which I was lucky enough to be at the premier of at the Cheltenham festival back in 1995.

I have had this observation for some time and it may be clearly out of place and with it I do not mean to disparage anyone in saying so but I believe this is all about a special time period and a special culture.  Not prior and certainly not since will this period ever be reproduced.  Why is it mainly European blood and culture and mostly the same countries?

That is the simplified statement as it is more complicated than that but the reason you have no quality creations today to match that of any great composer (especially prior to 1950) is because we progressively have come to live in a society of trash and rubbish and sub-standard ideals.  Look around and open your eyes.  It is not only music but if you look at the architecture, literature, art during these same periods you will see a connection.  

Did the majority of the great composers have electricity, indoor plumbing, cars, TV's, computers, i-Phones?  You would think that with all of our technology and modern conveniences that we would be evolving for the better but this is not the case.  As a result, we have developed into a lazy people with no need or desire to look for the greatness in creativity.  Some state of suffering is required to ultimately bring out the best in one not a software programme that can do it for you.

Most great composers, artists, writers etc. also went against the grain of what you could call the masses.  So they were fuelled by there own convictions.  They had something to say and to share and it wasn't some academic exercise to try to be different.  These were genuine people.

Mostly though these men worked very hard and were diligent.  Most were poor and had to produce something worthwhile to receive support of a wealthy benefactor.  

I would say though that one thing remains the same today as it did centuries ago.  I don't think classical music was universally accepted then nor is it today.  Really, it seems only a small percentage of the population that chooses to work at it and sees the value in it.  You say , Bach and Beethoven have a certain stature like no one else but it may be like throwing the name Einstein, Shakespeare or Caesar around.  Everyone knows these names but how much do these individuals know about the person and there works?

So the reason these composers may be considered genius' is that they actually produced the goods, they worked hard, and they lived in a time where it was possibly to create this level of profundity.  I for one hold on to these guys tightly since it is clear that this level of greatness will not be repeated again in our present day nor in the future.

OK EJ, I'll forgive you but only if you add Händel, Couperin, Rameau, Grieg, Prokofiev, Shostakovich, Bartok, Medtner, Smetana, Janácek, Saint-Saëns, Fauré, Franck, Albéniz, Granados, Ravel, Dvorák, Chaminade, Arensky, Chausson, Clara Schumann and a few thousand more if I get the time to list them. 

Actually, it is really impossible to list every genius.

And to be fair, yes Bach and Beethoven are very special but if you look at any of the names (+ the endless list that could be created) every one of these guys (and a few gals) are genius'.  Every other one of these composers offers us something very special and only a genius could create like they have.  It is a true gift and talent.

Sorry, the answer is still no to the "new classical composers genii" question.  There are those that qualify on some level as possibly being very smart and talented but not certainly at the same level as those from the past.  Style and taste are the limiting factors.