Lossless streaming - hardware limitations?

Hopefully Naim will eventually incorporate lossless into their streamers but in the meantime I just run an optical cable direct from my PC and thus I can play anything on my SU. My game is already changed but more convenience/nicer interface would be welcome.

 Just get a 2009 mac mini, around £200, will run the latest OS and pretty much any service you want including so called high end stuff such as amarra.

I just cannot get my head around why every one expects hifi devices to be fully fledged computers, a qute does not have dual core CPUs and 4 gigs of ram, it will never compete.

Eh, wut? CD quality is 16/44, any streamer, including you Qute can handle that. The only thing you can't do is using external sources like Spotify. This has nothing to do with 'CD quality streaming,' it just means the connectivity to these kind of sources is not implemented in the firmware of your first gen Qute. Why? Because Naim can't, or, more likely, is not willing to do so. So they can sellyu the board upgrade. But as these upgrades are just 400 or so, I think it's because they don't want to develop multiple firmwares. That would be more costly than the extra revenues for board upgrades.

So what exactly is your question? 

My question is whether Naim hardware can handle a Tidal or Qobuz lossless streaming service. I realise it can handle CD quality from a NAS - which I do now - but can it handle an external source such as Tidal? In other words, will it eventually be able to do what a Magik DS can do today? 

I realise I can hook up a PC or MAC and make it do anything, but that's not the option I want.

If it's just a firmware issue then fine, but I'm concerned it's more about the hardware, eg processing power or the ability to buffer lossless file sizes. Streaming services don't work like a NAS.

If a qute can handle LAN streaming at CD, it can handle WAN streaming at CD. But can your ISP handle it?

Can your router handle it?

The limitation is not in the qute persay, its doing it right now, you have said so.

I can't see why it wouldn't work with enough consistent bandwidth from the ISP. A device that can stream 16/44 from an internal HDD or NAS will surely stream OK? Why wouldn't it?

Guessing mind you.

I see what you mean. I still suspect the buffering capacity won't be an issue because it has to buffer over Ethernet in any case. Pure speculation on my part again. I guess somebody will communicate at the appropriate time. Perhaps now Spotify integration has been launched, some of the wheel will not need to be reinvented.

Allen, I think the lack of over the air upgrades is more an architectural constraint rather than anything else. The streaming via the internet would ideally need to have a buffer as you say to iron out irregularities in data flow, as after all there is no class of service involved. My guess is that this buffer exists in the streaming board, but how much buffer exists? - I guess only Naim know.. I don't think you would need a huge buffer for 16/44.1/2 if you ran it for a second - ie you would need around 150k bytes of buffer. (And that is for WAV, FLAC could be less)

I think the other consideration is that the current Spotify native application is optimized to push to recognized end points using its Connect feature.. that is the 4.1 firmware ND player. Looking at Qobuz I can't see that this 'Connect' type technique is supported from their  app other than using Apple Airplay .. and I am not sure though if Airplay is the optimum fidelity route... So it might be the approach for Qobuz and others would have to be different... 

I don't know the method that Deezer and others use, but if similar to Qobuz, then it might make sense for Naim to develop a more generic public network  streaming capability such that it could be parameterised for different services... Which is perhaps how other ND vendors do this.

I suspect Spotify is a special case and is highly integrated with the Spotify Connect  app such that the selected play list or media list is pushed to the network player and the player then simply pulls back the specific media references from the Spotify servers with little or no input from the Naim app.

Simon

Allen, I hope your fears are unfounded, but only when we see other streaming services supported will we be able to gauge whether there are relevant limitations to the current Naim architecture or not as the case may be  - as to your general point there is no capability roadmap published by Naim so we can only guess. ( in my line of work I am under constant pressure for these sort of roadmaps from my customers but I guess that is part of the difference between business and consumer product IT.)

If Naim ND players were stocks I had invested in, I feel I'd be starting to review my portfolio.

Simon

+1 ...unfortunately... and the lossless streaming ability is only one part of the story. In my opinion the DAC section of the U*, ND* (bar NDX I guess...) products is quickly becoming obsolete in comparison with the Hugo/PS Perfect Wave etc FPGA based DACs.. If I were in NAIM's shoes and would not want to lose this market share I would be working on both topics... with priority... I am not sure that the current architecture is insufficient to deal with the lossless streaming topic but I suppose the DAC topic is definitely requiring a hardware change and will invariably make the current products obsolete..

Their CDPs were all obsolete before they launched. Distinctly old tech and refusing to embrace the latest technology. Naim believed that they were just starting to scope, if not yet realise the full potential of 16X4 after the sheep had gone to Bitstream. They never even used to have a digital out. And yet people bought them. I'm willing to bet it wasn't all down to the badge.

Obsolete or not the NDS DAC sounds wonderful on so many levels. It ain't broke musically. It's never as black and white as it may appear. 

A reassuring point,Harry. And of course a typo in my post, I meant to write "(bar NDS...)" ...

LOL! I read what you meant to type and missed what you actually typed.

Unplug the ethernet cable from the streamer when music is playing and count the seconds until the music stops. Unless there is an automatic shut off with ethernet disconnected you will have your approx buffer size for a given file type.

Odd claim. In what way obsolete?

Unclear what use high-res features are for the vast majority of digital masterings available.

Don't forget the A in DAC stands for analogue. Why is it that people are plugging other DACs into Naim analogue sections (pre-amps)? Because Naim does analogue sections well.

The streamers you mention have an analogue section in their DACs too.

Hi Marky Mark, all I am saying I that to the concern expressed in this thread that the current streamer may not have enough memory to cop with lossles streaming services - a thread that might render said steamers obsolete - I see an even bigger (in my opinion) "obsolescence reason" coming from the newer DAC architectures, nothing to do with hi res. There are people here who have swapped NDS for Hugo. I am saying that NAIM should address both the lossless streaming capability and be competitive (not only in terms of absolute sonic capability considerations but also value for money) in the DAC section to keep up with the competition. I don't find this an odd claim. 

Marty Mark, I was thinking of the buffer potentially available for lossless web streaming, but your suggestion has got me curious so I'll give it a go later for UPnP and web radio.

As far as Spotify, it does appear the ND service is highly specific to Spotify. It appears that Naim have created an Apple bonjour Spotify Connect service (_spotify-connect._tcp) that resides on the ND player. This in turn allows the Spotify app to discover the ND player using bonjour, and recognise it as a Spotify Connect device and talk to it as such. This has the advantage that the more involved authentication and rights management and navigation occurs away from the ND player, and the player itself can then concentrate on rendering the media streams. a task it is probably fair to assume it's optmized for.

Now if other streaming services can also use bonjour to register streamers from their client apps then this current Naim functionality could be reasonably extendable, but Qobuz for one appears not use this technique.

For streaming services  other than Spotify, the  ND player might not have enough resources itself to liaise and register with the streaming service directly and so therefore this might lead the way to more customisation on the Naim app itself For future streaming services

So if phase 1.was specific to Spotify, perhaps phase 2 would be for Naim to create a general bonjour sevice such as _naim-player._tcp on the ND player and have the Naim app customised for the particular streaming services talk to this bonjour service on the ND player in a more service generic  way. This feels achievable and perhaps circumvents possible limitations in the ND player architecture.

lets see where Naim take us 

Simon

The buffer implementation on your streamer should be the same for different sources. Naturally it will hold more of a lossy track in it than it could a lossless track at any one time.

As the buffer will be memory rather than a hard-drive, the I/O itself is not really a consideration for such minor usage.

There is potential for external effects i.e outside the streamer, for example throttling by an ISP. However, a lossless file is so neglible when streamed many of these seem unlikely to prove material except where there is an external fault or someone has exceptionally poor bandwidth.

I can download an entire FLAC in 4 seconds and suspect the majority can do so in under 15 seconds. Why worry so much about downloading the same file v-e-r-y  s-l-o-w-l-y over 4 minutes?

What I can tell you is that a 9 year old Sonos device continues playing a lossless file for 20 seconds after the ethernet cable is pulled out. Never once has that provision proven insufficient.

Hence I would be surprised if more modern Naim streamers suffered some great affliction which rendered them unable to stream lossless. Even more so given they already happily stream lossless files locally.

This is fine. I don't think your speculation there may not be enough memory to stream lossless as well as your having read that a few people bought a third-party DAC provides any tangible evidence that the DAC section of the streamers are "quickly becoming obsolete" as you first claimed.

Your assumption is Naim has to do something to be competitive in the DAC section. As I explained above, the analogue part of the DAC section is important. If the DAC's you quote have the analogue section fully covered why would owners plug them into Naim analogue sections in the form of pre-amps?

My advice is don't underestimate the importance of the analogue section in joining a temporary consumption-driven stampede led by digital specifications but uninformed by what they mean.

Thanks for all the comments so far.

I'm less bothered by the progress being made in DAC technology - I speak as a customer. If I were a shareholder in Naim I'd certainly be concerned that my customers are comparing my kit to a third party portable product costing a fraction as much. But as a customer I enjoy the sound of Naim equipment and I find it reliable and it looks right (to me), so I'll accept that I may not be getting the absolute best SQ available.

What I'm more bothered by is if the tech platform simply won't do something I find desirable, such as lossless streaming from the cloud. That would send me to another manufacturer. Let's face it, the next (current really) big shift in music consumption is cloud-based . . . Spotify is obviously the elephant of lossy, and may one day become the leader in lossless too, but even if not, someone, somehow will do it. In five years time, audiophiles will be getting most or all music that way. What I don't want to do is invest my hard-earned in a hardware platform that just won't do that, irrespective of firmware and commercial deals.

The difference for me is that SQ is subjective and, while there are differences no doubt, no-one is saying Naim streamers sound bad. But lossless streaming is all or nothing - it either does it or it doesn't - and I'd like some clarity on that from Naim before investing. 

In the new year I'll give them a call and see if they have a view they're willing to share.

Yes, I see your point.

One solution in light of your misgivings is to retain modularity by viewing streamers and DACs as separate components. This is what many of us do.

+1 Marky Mark . . . . I'm more and more seeing the wisdom of that approach. Separate boxes ensure that each element can be treated discretely, which spreads any investment required because you're only changing the bit you want to change, not the whole thing. I'll be giving that a lot of thought.

Thanks guys. This is an interesting thread providing insight and provoking thought at the same time. I hope we do not need high speed CPUs, dedicated memories and ample Ram capacities in our Naim network players for them to be compatible with the Zeitgeist. We’ll see that in not so distant future.

As was indicated by many on this and other forums Redbook quality streaming would become a global mainstream sooner or later. If not Tidal/Qobuz but maybe Spotify or most likely Apple/Beats would pioneer in this respect I guess.  It will certainly shape up how we listen to music, what we purchase as hardware and physical media. It will not render our digital files stored useless for sure, but still more and more people would like to have CD quality streaming on the get-go.    

Season’s greetings to all Naim staff and fellow forum members.