SQ of Tidal/Deezer Elite with Sonos through NDX digital in ?

Am using Sonos Connect -> Wireworld Toslink -> NDS, and Tidal and Deezer both sound great! The sound quality is very comparable to what I heard running these services natively on an iPhone, and connecting to the front panel USB port.

Hopefully Naim catches up and adds lossless streaming to their control app. But in the meantime, I think Sonos Connect is an excellent solution.

Hook

Hi Hook, I have just discovered I can rent a Sonos Connect at about £2.70 a week or something like that lically! Might be an option until Naim add the lossless streaming services.

Any tips on connecting the Sonos to Naim? No issue with sharing same power spur etc?

Thanks

Simon

Hi, I decided to for it.. I got a Sonos Connect.. All wired up, and I have my NDX display and Naim app show " Sonos  "

It sounds great.. And I have just re subscribed to Qobuz Hifi .. And now I can appreciate what lossless gives you on the Naim.. Absolutely fantastic. Spotify and  Deezer with its free 12 month subscription sound good as well.. But Qobuz obviously is significantly ahead.. Sounding pretty much like CD rips.

Simon

I bought a must 4 days ago and have subscribed to deezer, napster, quobuz and spotify to see what the catalogue comparisons are like.

Answering your question, or at least talking around the issue, I am struggling to work out how i can play qobuz at 24bit on naim. Sonos is limited to 16 bit! usb seems to limit to 16 bit, there's no desktop app so can't stream via wired network! Basically i can't work it out at all. Must say I noticed a sound improvement streaming through Sonos connect rather than through wired usb.

Before anyone tells me about the inaudible difference between 16 bit and 24 bit, I just want to hear it for myself. some people can't hear the difference between 320 and 1411 (which to me is unbelievably obvious)

Sonos interface is unequalled, I love it, but it leaves me with a problem connecting my TV as there's only one optical input on the Mu-So. I have resorted to using the 3.5mm analogue for tv. Would have been nice to use the Line-in on connect allowing me to play TV sound in any room but delay in sound relay is too great.

Napster has the best catalogue and interface but SQ is poor. I think i'll settle on deeper elite when released in the uk via sonos. I think £20 a month is a bit rich though, £15 would be on the money IMO.

Quick question for Simon-in-Suffolk,

Am I to understand that if I bought another connect I would get a year's free subscription to Spotify and Deezer. That's worth almost £240! Worth buying another Connect if that's the case!

Hi, not quite  I didnt mean to mislead.

Sonos is currently offering a free 12 month subscription to Deezer, not Spotify, apprently worth around £100.

My local electrical shop had a Sonos Connect without box going for double that.. so thought too good to miss.. 

Really hope Naim get lossless sorted but least I feel I am not missing out now with my Naim, and I agree the Sonos app is great .. I like the way it searches concurrently through subscribed services, and I like the album and artist info...

I think you'll find Qobuz Hifi streaming is limited to 16 bit. The 24 bit versions are downloadable as a purchase and streamable from your local server.

I agree about the hidef quality offering something over and above CD.. I bought John Lennon's Imagine in 24/96 and it sounds amazing and his voice is lot more emotive than on the CD master.

Simon

Simon

For the ignorant amongst us can you please describe how you incorporate a Sonos Connect into a typical Naim set up. I have Unitiserve/ NDS Ethernet wired through an AirPort Extreme and Netgear 105 switch.

Also where do you 'rent'? I would be mightily upset if I invested in a Connect only for Naim to announce some form of lossless steaming 2 weeks later. I have to say that commercial issues aside, some guidance from Naim on this issue would be greatly appreciated.

I love SONOS interface for exactly the same reasons. Quobuz doesn't seem to do a fuzzy logic search so unless you type the song or artist in exactly right , it won't fit it. Really really poor IMO.

A bit misleading about the 24-bit music only being purchasable! 

I tell you what, if you don't fancy that connect at £200 I do! Will you let me know the store if you decide against? Or shall I call every electrical shop in suffolk, lol

Sorry, I have bought it.. There was only one they had without a box .  But they have stock at the regular price....

I read from the Qobuz enhancement forum that they are working on improving the search function... which I agree is not commensurate with the quality of the service. BTW, if you do get the hifi subscription there are often 30% to 50% off downloads.

Also if you do get a Sonos Connect, ensure you set the lineout to fixed in the Sonos settings... This also applies to the SPDIF out, and removes the eq and level adjustments which push the transparency of streamed FLACs yet further.

Simon

Simon

Just wondering what you decided to do about mains connection for the Connect?

Mine's been stood down for some months now because I found it really squashed the sound of my 202/200 system.  In my case the Connect was connected via an Arcam DAC which also has a small SMPS wall-wart, so I think mains borne noise from the power supplies of both items was the main problem.  

It's not practical for me to plug the wall warts into a different wall outlet to the rest of the system and I don't want to spend £'00's on a filtering mains block (and anyway it looks a mine-field selecting one that will be effective).  

Lossless streaming through my main system would be nice though, so it would be good to know whether you've found it an issue and if so how you tackled it.

Thanks

Olly

Simon

Where do you find the 'Qobuz enhancement forum' or indeed any other Qobuz fora? Can't find links on the Qobuz website, and a Google search hasn't helped me.

Paul

Paul, it's not a regular forum so i hope I am not breaching this forum's rules

http://aide.qobuz.com

Simon

Olly, I plugged into a seperate mains strip to my Naim, but on the same spur... No issue at all. The PSU on the Sonos is inbuilt and I suspect is designed better than the worst of the wall warts.

Simon

Hi Simon -

My hat's off to Sonos - the more I use Connect, the more I like it!

Have been going back and forth between lossless streaming from Deezer and Tidal, and can hear little if any difference between them. I deliberately picked recent releases so as to hopefully get the same version from both services (and not get fooled by different masterings). If Qobuz ever crosses the Atlantic, I'll try them as well. Right now, I am strongly leaning towards canceling Tidał. Deezer's library seems to almost always be a superset of what Tidal has to offer. Between Deezer, Wolfgang's Vault and my own library, the only thing I'll be missing is time!  It is truly amazing having all of this music available, and all through a single, easy-to-use interface. The only thing Connect missing is high resolution support, and for me, this is not a big deal.  My 24-bit library is small, and it's easy to switch to the naim app when the need arises.

Next test for me was comparing the streaming services to some recent CD rips. I am not 100% sure, but my initial feeling is that I am hearing some very minor improvements using only my NDS and the naim app. There seems to be just a bit more clarity in the upper mids and highs, but it is certainly not night and day. Also, it will take me a lot more listening for me to be sure of anything.

I took the conservative setup approach, and connected my Sonos to a separate electrical circuit. Am connecting to my NDS using a good quality Wireworld Toslink cable. As time permits, I will try connecting the Sonos to my audio system's circuit, and I will also try an RCA S/PDIF cable. If there is any improvement, I might ask my Naim dealer if he has an RCA HiLine I could demo. But again, these are early days, and the optical connection sounds plenty good enough for right now.

All in all, I can see why Sonos is doing so well. Easy setup, reliable operation and, at least when used as a digital source, very good sound quality. I think that the Sonos Connect, along with the arrival of lossless streaming, has turned out to be a wonderful holiday treat!

Merry Christmas to you and yours, and all the best in the NewYear!

Hook

One more thing I am testing is using Sonos as a UPnP client. The Connect did not show this option by default - had to first enable the Rhapsody UPnP service setting. It works very well, and Sonos picked up on all of my Asset-based playlists.  

As before, more listening is required, but my initial impression is that using the NDS as the UPnP client sounds better.

Hook

Simon

Thanks, I'll have to re-experiment.

Hook, yes ultimately the NDX streaming UPnP locally into my Hugo sounds better than the Sonos streaming FLAC over the web.. It's in the upper mid and highs you notice it as you say... There is extra resolution and a more natural feel to the sound .. If the CD has been mastered well.

However the Sonos is sounding great... Very pleased.

I will have to experiment with the UPnP on the Sonos, ( for the combined searching feature) but I have growing amounts of hidef now, so these won't work with the Sonos.

Hook, Olly and all, merry Christmas to you and yours.

Simon

For those who like Sonos, remember that the Connect transport will sound better with modifications (W4S, Dr. Gert, Magna HiFi), good digital cable and power cord, and proper isolation from vibration.  I recently replaced a Chord Prodac IC with the Naim DC1 and frankly, the improvement is quite amazing.  

I am using the Sonos optical out into the NDX to reclock the SPDIF into an off board DAC so I wonder if these changes to the Sonos will make much difference in this config. I am pleasantly suprised how well FLAC streaming (Qobuz) sounds this way.. In fact the way it sounds this morning it feels a viable alternative to locally streamed CDs. It almost feels like a game changer. 

Strangely to my ears, the Sonos acting as UPnP network player from local lossless media sounds less good (slightly more shut in and restrained) than streamed FLAC via Qobuz... can't work that out.. Playing the same locally stored album natively via NDX sounds a lot closer to the Qobuz sound via the Sonos.

Simon

Hi Simon -

Your experience matches mine exactly.  As a result, am using the Sonos app for Deezer and Music Vault, but switch over to naim for UPnP and iRadio.

While the Toslink connection sounds surpringly good, I do wonder if modding the Connect for BNC would be worth the effort.  Admittedly, the main reason I am interested is that I have a BNC-to-BNC DC1 that is not being used right now. Do you think this is worth pursuing?

Thanks!

Hook

Hook, that crossed my mind too... If I had a long enough coax SPDIF connector I could give it a try.

the Sonos mod that was mentioned by Kendrick is, from what I can see, mainly about upping the spec of the clock thereby reducing it's noise and jitter, and so it's benefits I suspect would apply equally to Toslink and Coax. You could always use a phone to BNC converter inintitally?

Simon

Hook, You post said that you are streaming lossless from Deezer! I have a deeper account and it's 320KBS. Apparently Deezer Elite isn't in the U.K yet. Are you state side then?

Kendrick, if you have a dirty mains supply what can a good power lead possibly do? Doesn't one need to clean up the supply before worrying about the transmission of power from to the unit itself?

I know the Naim Mu-So has digital amplifiers, does that mean there is no DAC at all, or am I misunderstanding the tech?

Is Naim pronounced Nam or Name?

Finally, I know that this hobby gets to a point where the cost of upgrades vs the improvements they bring widens, so my question is about the W4S upgrade for the Sonos. Is this Jitter of which I have little understanding such that the improvement in sound from an upgrade would be as significant as say listening to a 320KBS stream as opposed to a 1411KBS stream. I'm want to do what I can for better SQ but am not into obsessing about tiny differences.

Your education on these questions would be greatly appreciated.

Sorry! one more thing.

I know of the Isotek products only. There's a GII for sale on eBay for about £300. I want surge protect and mains filtering but the range of products covering a wide price point are quite overwhelming. Can anyone tell me the cheap option that gets 80% of the job done?

Wouldn't mind using for my plasma tv as well

Hi.. A couple of answers:

1. Naim is pronounced 'name'
2. Digital amplifiers usually relate to how they work by switching a voltage on an and off across a load and filtering it... Not totally dissimilar to how a switched mode power supply works. However you still need to use a DAC at the front end (of one sort or other)  as it is an analogue signal that is being constructed by the amplifier, not a digital one which would sound like a terrible screeching noise - unless that is what you wanted..