SQ of Tidal/Deezer Elite with Sonos through NDX digital in ?

I am interested in this solution Simon and would be grateful if you could tell me in layman's terms how to integrate the Sonos Connect into my my NDX/Hugo set up?

(Presently the router is connected to the NDX by a 15m cat6e cable that runs underfloor as the computer/router/NAS is in a separate room.)

Cheers in advance,

Graeme

The Remedy reclocker sounds great. So the W4S upgrade isn't necessary with this option and I can use it with other devices as well. I hope I've understood right.

DAC is part of the Mu-so so trust that it being Naim it will be half decent.

Graeme, happy to help.. And fortunately it's really straightforward.

1) attach Sonos to your home LAN, preferably using ethernet but can use wifi. No setup is required just press two buttons on the Sonos whilst running the Sonos client app and it automatically sets itself up.. No messig with IP addresses etc.

2) Connect a Toslink fibre, or RCA coax SPDIF from the back of the Sonos to the digital input on the back of the NDX.

3) (optional) set up the NDX input for the chosen SPDIF input to say 'Sonos'. This appears as Sonos on the NDX display and the Naim app.

4) select your chosen Sonos app from step 2) (iOS, Android, PC Windows, Mac) and start to stream - initially it will just be TuneIn web radio. 

5) add your streaming services by following simple setup instruction on the Sonos client app... All you need are your usernames and passwords for these services... Sonos takes care of the rest. These services all become available for you to select and play from. I use Deezer, Spotify Qobuz and TuneIn.

voila

Simon

Many thanks Simon.

One thought - Have you tried bypassing the NDX altogether? (Heresy I know)...

G

Graeme, i thought about it, but as you make have noticed on the thread with Hook, the NDX excels at UPnP as well as supporting hidef. The Sonos for me is my web streaming front end until Naim catch up. I can't believe they won't, Spotify is good, but there are other interesting services out there for the music and hifi lover. I am not sure what has happened to Qobuz recently but they have a massively increased range of very upto date lossless streaming content, often including different mixes and masters, seemingly more so than on Spotify which has suprised me.. At least according to the Sonos app....

...Listening to JJ Cale 'Ebbets Field Live 1975' via Spotify 320 and it's actually pretty good. I'm warming to it enough that I think I might just hold out for lossless to keep things simple...

G

As Wat mentions above, the Sonos S/PDIF output has relatively high jitter. Fortunately, Naim network players use the same re-clocking architecture that was introduced with the DAC.  Audio data is clocked into the network player's buffer memory at the incoming, inconsistently timed rate. It is then clocked out using a precise master clock (one that is selected to best match the incoming frequency). 

Note also that the same level of jitter removal is applied whether the network player's output is analogue or digital, so Simon and I both benefit - he with his external Hugo dac, and me with my NDS's internal dac.

As I recall from owning the Naim DAC, when connected electrically using RCA or BNC S/PDIF connections, some minor differences in sound could be heard among digital sources.  We had a very long thread on this topic a few years ago called "Why is the Naim DAC so cheap?".  Since I have no reason not to trust Naim's claim that they remove all S/PDIF-related jitter through buffering and re-clocking, the only explanation anyone could come up with for these differences in sound quality was RFI/EMI.

I can think of only two ways of managing this:  1) Connect the Sonos to a separate mains circuit, use a Toslink interconnect, and place the Sonos at some physical distance from the main audio setup, or 2) Use a BNC connection, along with an external re-clocker.  (2) will have the advantage of delivering the cleanest possible digital stream, possibly causing the Naim player to not work as hard. Perhaps this might cut down any internally generated EMI. But the copper connection would also introduce the possibility of external (digital source or air-based) interference. 

For now, I've gone with (1), but the re-clocker that Wat describes above is affordable, and it also has a BNC output. I have a spare BNC-to-BNC DC1, so I may order one of these through Amazon and try it. I do not see any disadvantage to having two re-clockers in the digital input stream, but would welcome any thoughts on that. 

I agree with Simon that the Sonos Connect should be a temporary solution for those of us with Naim network players, so I hesitate to spend any more money right now.  But as we know, Naim moves very cautiously! If it's going to be another year before we see Deezer/Qobuz/Tidal support, I will likely be tempted to experiment.

ATB.

Hook

Hook, do you know if the Mu-So has this buffering and reclocking technology onboard. If so I'll save myself £400 on the Remedy.

Sorry Claude, I do not know. Much has been written about mu-so, and we know it has DSP logic, but I have not read anything about it doing jitter removal. Also, I don't think Naim has published a white paper with an internal architecture diagram, so there's no easy way to check.

Given most will be used for iRadio or as UPnP clients, I would not be surprised to hear that it's digital input was built to a price point. Best to ask Naim support when they are back from the holiday break.

ATB.

Hook

I have had a day off today - well actually got this week off - and been listening to some music 

I have been streaming Qobuz via Sonos Toslink into my NDX/Hugo - and have been enjoying some superb material - from Pink Floyd's 2011 Remastered version of The Wall, and the new Endless River album. Been listening to some contemporary French Jazz by Les Negres Vertes, some great favourites from the 1950s Rock and Roll era with Chuck Berry and Wynonie Harris. Finally I have been enjoying King Krule's 6 Feet Beneath the Moon and J Dilla's Donuts.

The  enjoyment and detail is the same as my locally stored media. In fact some of the Qobuz mater version options are better.

I can't help feeling streaming services has come of age for me - lossless streaming really is superb boon to the music enthusiast and works sonically effectively seamlessly with my Naim  - and my lossy Spotify for the car via 3G.

The Sonos seems to work so well as a front streaming board alternative for the Naim ND players. The Naim ND also seems to reclock and tidy up the Sonos SPDIF so no fancy after market mods are required.

Very pleased - 

Simon

OK, I'm a bit below you two in SQ terms - a mere SuperUniti. Why should I consider the Sonos route rather than a Mac Mini, which is what I'm thinking of at the moment? Or shall I just assume that at some point in 2015, Naim will integrate a lossless streaming service, and save my pennies?

Graeme, nothing like a compulsive buy 

Let us know how you get on... Do you have a Qobuz subscription? BTW if you buy new CDs from Amazon then they are all available as a 320kbps MP3 download as well for free from Amazon (unless I get that free because I buy Amazon  Prime). Again simple to setup on the Sonos and a single key registration to bind accounts.

Goon, I guess there is nothing wrong with a Mac Mini, but seems a bit of an overkill as a streaming front end - unless you want to stream Hidef without using Naim and then clearly it would help by doing both. 

As far as Naim integrating lossless services in 2015.. Not sure, we appear to have had mixed messages on the forum... But why miss out whilst Naim possibly catches up? - and of course the Naim reclocker appears to clean up the Sonos SPDIF signal to hifi/Naim grade standard.

Simon

Agree on the Play1.  Had to get a new kettle today .. And came back with a nice new kettle and a Play1 for the kitchen. Apparently the Play 1 is humidity proofed... We shall see.. 

Simon

Well that was very straightforward to set up.

Presently just using the Deezer free Premium + to get aquainted but I note they are bringing lossless 'Elite' to the UK in Early 2015. 

Also just have a cheapo Cambridge Audio RCA-RCA digital between the Sonos & NDX but it will give me an indication of how lossless can sound when I work out how to get a free qobuz trial - I may struggle as I've had a download account for over a year so not exactly a new customer.

G

Post Script - Managed to get a 1 month free Qobuz lossless streaming trial.

Blimey, it's very good!  Can see me moving over to this now as I'd easily spend £20 buying CD's when I could access an unlimited library.

G

I'm searching through Sonos which seems fine to me.

G

Yes, it's brilliant - I've been using Qobuz for about six months and find my listening is now about 80% qobuz 20% NAS.  NAS via my NDX definitely is slightly better SQ wise but I'm still enjoying exploring Qobus's huge collection

I have it set up wirelessly at the moment and have had one streaming dropout.  

Does connecting via ethernet override the wireless and give greater stability?

Thanks,

Graeme

I've been using SONOS Connect since spring of 2011 and love it. First into a SN1 a year later into NDAC and months later SN2 powered. The NDAC to my ears sort out jitter issues with the internal buffer and Deezer sounds great and so do a lot of radio stations. For hi res and most everything else I go through the UnitiServe/NDAC which imparts little different tonality but SONOS is very good. My US shit the bed and is being returned from the USA repair outfit with damn near everything replaced including the power supply so I've been on SONOS alone for over a month. From Deezer try Primus-Tales from the Punch Bowl(Edited Version 1995). Radio...try KCSM 91.1 Jazz either Naim or SONOS...

Interesting that it can be mated with a Naim streamer. May try than in the future if I go that route. 

Simon have you tried the Connect direct into the HUGO?

Regards,

Mack

Graeme, yes I set up,the Connect via ethernet and have had no dropout, unless I am doing a large download on my internet access, then both Qobuz and Spotify can stutter, but I have only a 3.6 to 4 Mbps ADSL access. But with regular web browsing and email by all family members and streaming Spotify or Qobuz to two different Sono sounds, I get no breakup.

ChamaleonClaude, in the summer Qobuz was more limited than it appears now, but I think they have now reached lossless arrangements with the big labels (according to their news site) and have approx 25M titles, a huge increase in content. it has  found just about everything I have searched for, even if it takes a few tries, and seems to have several mixes and remixes I can't find on Spotify. I was enjoying the Monty Python stage shows and The Prisoner sound track tapes last night.

I agree the search is a little idiosyncratic even via Sonos. For  example when searching for a particular trach, use the track option by entering title and then artist on the same line. Also & and 'and' don't match the same. But get used to that and it appears to work most times.

Mack, no I haven't tried Sonos directly into Hugo. it will work of course, but I can't tell you the impact of the Naim not tidying up and reclocking the SPDIF signal. If I get bored might give it a try.. But now its all set up and sounding pristine, I am  a bit reluctant to go fiddling 

I'm going to be adventurous and connect Sonos to Hugo direct today. On the face of it it would seem a nice simple solution but I'm aware I might get the jitters!

There's a youtube video of a Sonos Connect, Chord Hugo & MF integrated straight into PMC Fact 8's and the visual/in-use simplicity of it is appealing (useless for determining sonics obviously).

Can't believe it will be a miracle solution, but nothing ventured nothing gained.

Will report back later.

G