ND5XS SQ USB vs. UPnP
Posted by: Bowers on 26 January 2015
After a period of just streaming audio from a server (Asset) on a Windows 7 PC tried the following:
Copied some flac and wav files to a USB stick and played them from the ND5XS USB input.
Had the same experience as with UPnP :
A significant SQ improvement comparing flac to wav.
Also I think SQ of wav files from USB was better than wav streams via UPnP/ethernet input.
Using USB does not provide the nice database asset does, but
Idea to copy my most interesting music on USB stick(s) en enjoy just for SQ reasons.
Anyone that can share comparable experiences ? Any suggestions on a "good" USB stick choice or even a "good sounding" external HDD ?
Last year I put some WAVs ripped on my Unitiserve onto a USB stick, and played it through the front USB input of my Superuniti. To my surprise, it sounded better than the same music played via UPnP. What I subsequently discovered was that I could do a lot to optimise my streaming setup, and once I'd done that, UPnP no longer sounded inferior. Possible issues include streaming over WiFi instead of ethernet, RFI (possibly mitigated by putting ferries in cables), quality of power supply for NAS, quality of interconnects, earthing.
There are quite a few threads covering these issues, maybe worth having a look at how your system is configured to see if you can close the gap.
And no nas/computer needed to be switched on. Yup, love usb. Best to date Corsair flash voyager GS series. Using a USB 3 port it loads in no time. Robust, reliable and the flashing light is a lovely non-annoying faint blue. 256gb version works a treat. Regularly swap between ndx, uniti and qute with never a dodgy connection. And pretty rapid initialisation given the voluminous contents.
Andy
I swear my Qute sounds better through the front USB. I'm sure optimizing the network and the such would make it better, but I have neither the time or patience for it. On my Qute I lose the ability to do playlists or see album art, but that is fine with me,
I agree with Chris, an optimised UPnP NAS is as good as it gets, but USB is not to be sniffed at, it's hard to say one is better than the other.
Scandisk Extream 64GB USB-3 Flashdrive for me
I agree with Chris, an optimised UPnP NAS is as good as it gets, but USB is not to be sniffed at, it's hard to say one is better than the other.
Scandisk Extream 64GB USB-3 Flashdrive for me
I just bought the cheapest high capacity USB stick I could find, a 128GB USB3 stick for £25. Works a treat for playing WAV rips from my Unitiserve in the car.
I'm astonished.
I'm astonished.
.......... err ??????
I'm astonished.
I'm not,
Surely USB direct into the ND5 has a lot less stages to go through, and a lot chance of interference...........
Last year I put some WAVs ripped on my Unitiserve onto a USB stick, and played it through the front USB input of my Superuniti. To my surprise, it sounded better than the same music played via UPnP. What I subsequently discovered was that I could do a lot to optimise my streaming setup, and once I'd done that, UPnP no longer sounded inferior. Possible issues include streaming over WiFi instead of ethernet, RFI (possibly mitigated by putting ferries in cables), quality of power supply for NAS, quality of interconnects, earthing.
There are quite a few threads covering these issues, maybe worth having a look at how your system is configured to see if you can close the gap.
Hi Chris,
thx for your feedback.
Think I followed most of the advices concerning the setup of the streaming network.
Wired ethernet (cat 7)
connecting PC and streamer via (netgear) switches (no router)
between (modified) switch and streamer (audioquest ethernet)
I doubt closing the gap in SQ will be really possible but I like to try and learn because single source UPnP will be most convenient.
Suggestions are most welcome.
Peter
Chris and Mike...When you say, "optimised UPnP NAS", could you expand on that please.
I also tried a USB stick in my ND5 XS, it sounds really good, but no artwork or metadata, just numbered tracks. Is that how it should be?
Hi Peter, I wonder if your PC is letting your music system down. I don't have much experience here as I gave up on that at an early stage and bought a Unitiserve, which is a great bit of kit, albeit expensive. I wonder if a NAS, and/or a dedicated music computer (Mac Mini or similar) would perform better for you than a busy, multi-tasking PC?
Other than that, it seems that your system is set up OK. Is there any chance you might have RFI or mains quality issues that might affect SQ when streaming? If so, read this:
https://drive.google.com/file/...NVk/edit?usp=sharing
Regards, Chris
Chris and Mike...When you say, "optimised UPnP NAS", could you expand on that please.
I also tried a USB stick in my ND5 XS, it sounds really good, but no artwork or metadata, just numbered tracks. Is that how it should be?
Optimised to me is a subnet centred on a switch & NO wireless or ethernet over power
Sensible (not mad money) ethernet cables - in my case Cat 7 SFTP
SFTP shield correctly grounded at one point only (NDX) & carried around the network across the switch.
SMPS overloaded with ferrite on both AC & DC
SMPS power all isolated via UPS with internal 1/1 isolation transformer & C&D Mode choke
SMPS & hif on separate power supply (hifi power is via DC Off-Set filter
USB does not give art & metadata
Chris and Mike...When you say, "optimised UPnP NAS", could you expand on that please.
I also tried a USB stick in my ND5 XS, it sounds really good, but no artwork or metadata, just numbered tracks. Is that how it should be?
Optimised to me is a subnet centred on a switch & NO wireless or ethernet over power
Sensible (not mad money) ethernet cables - in my case Cat 7 SFTP
SFTP shield correctly grounded at one point only (NDX) & carried around the network across the switch.
SMPS overloaded with ferrite on both AC & DC
SMPS power all isolated via UPS with internal 1/1 isolation transformer & C&D Mode choke
SMPS & hif on separate power supply (hifi power is via DC Off-Set filter
USB does not give art & metadata
Cheers for that Mike...I can tick most of those boxes, epecially the switch and 'nice' Cat7 Ethernets.
I'm astonished.
I'm not,
Surely USB direct into the ND5 has a lot less stages to go through, and a lot chance of interference...........
My expectation is Lower jitter by dlna instead of usb.
but Maybe I'm wrong?
I would expect no difference on jitter between uPnP/DLNA and USB simply because the streamer should be pulling the data and be in perfect control of it's buffer. Therefore what comes out of the re-clocking process should be identical.
When being fed by another player through digital coax/optical, then the streamer doesn't control the data feed or rate, but unless the source is really bad, then buffered re-clocking really should still work?
Q on cat7... unless the switch has shielded ports (given away by lots of metal around them) then is the network cabling correctly shielded? Most home switches have plastic port surrounds which I don't believe are shielded ports... so could cat7 or shielded cat5/6 with plastic switch ports make RFI over LAN cables worse?
Q on cat7... unless the switch has shielded ports (given away by lots of metal around them) then is the network cabling correctly shielded? Most home switches have plastic port surrounds which I don't believe are shielded ports... so could cat7 or shielded cat5/6 with plastic switch ports make RFI over LAN cables worse?
Naim streamers have shielded ports connected to protective earth (E), & some thought should be given to grounding when using STP (Cat 7 etc).
An ethernet shield needs to be grounded to work most effectively, but only at one point.
If the shield is carried across the switch & forms a whole network shield, it must be grounded at one point only.
If the switch has insulated ports, it can be grounded at more than one point using the switch to isolate each ethernet shield section..
I selected Cat 7 for the whole network & a shielded ports switch intending to ground the network only at the streamer (NDX). I knew the broadband hub was not shielded (as I wanted) & assumed the Synology NAS was also not grounded. Wrong !!! The port is shielded but I assumed as the NAS is powered by +12v/0v DC from a SMPS, that it was not grounded. But it is !!!, L&N do all the 12vDC stuff & E goes straight through to 0v DC & the port shield. Whoops !!! two grounds
............ & on difference power supplies - double whoops
I would expect no difference on jitter between uPnP/DLNA and USB simply because the streamer should be pulling the data and be in perfect control of it's buffer. Therefore what comes out of the re-clocking process should be identical.
When being fed by another player through digital coax/optical, then the streamer doesn't control the data feed or rate, but unless the source is really bad, then buffered re-clocking really should still work?
Q on cat7... unless the switch has shielded ports (given away by lots of metal around them) then is the network cabling correctly shielded? Most home switches have plastic port surrounds which I don't believe are shielded ports... so could cat7 or shielded cat5/6 with plastic switch ports make RFI over LAN cables worse?
Okay, If the streamer pulls it's clear.
in this case it is different to the use of pc/mac.
Out of interest Kevin, as that's an emphatic vote for USB, how is your streaming system connected ? wired, wireless, ethernet over mains, do you have a proper switch or a modem/router as the network hub? & what is your storage medium? NAS make/model ... etc...?
JRiver transcodes to wav for all file types.
So, if a NDX STREAMER does not have the same or better SQ by using upnp/dlna via a propper LAN connection this kit is not worth the money.
IMHO this ist the main application it was developed for.
Thanks Kevin, it goes some way to confirm a suspicion I've had for a while & adds more weight in my mind to the tangible benefits of an all wired system for best SQ
I can't hear that much SQ diff between my all ethernet UPnP (NAS) replay & USB with hi-res files. Its the same with a mate on his fully wired Linn system. Whereas a SuperUniti I know has a mix of ethernet, wireless & home plugs, including a linked in Sonos in 3 rooms & the NAS in his office business unit. USB has much better SQ when playing on his SuperUniti & the system in that room, but will add that CD rips (16/44) are nowhere near so different as it is with 24/96.
USB for me . I just find it more reliable but that is more down to my unreliable network which will soon be upgraded to fibre . I have 4 - 64 GB sticks containing favourite albums and playlists . The sound quality is fantastic and the only minus is the lack of artwork , at the end of the day its all about the music for me.
USB for me . I just find it more reliable but that is more down to my unreliable network which will soon be upgraded to fibre . I have 4 - 64 GB sticks containing favourite albums and playlists . The sound quality is fantastic and the only minus is the lack of artwork , at the end of the day its all about the music for me.
Wow. You are laying fibre around your home? Please give us more details.