Thinking of abandoning Naim after 35 years

Dunstan, I am totally with you. 5 years ago I suggested that Naim should partner up with one of the burgeoning developers of streaming software to save themselves the headaches of exactly your situation.

I have researched and written extensively about equivalent product development strategies in the automotive industry, warning of the risk of not embracing the rising tide of software importance and user experience. What do we see now? Automotive OEMs and suppliers buying up sofware companies and desperately playing catch-up in the face of increasingly vocal customer complaints as well as scathing reviews from consumer organisations and journalists.

Naim are at least 3 years behind the auto companies in grasping the damage they are doing their brand.

Unfortunately we are probably shouting into a black hole as Naim customer service have told me that they do not have time (or the push from the top) to monitor these forums. Much less respond and interact with these very real issues. 

I'm still mulling over whether my mu-so is worth persevering with due to all the interaction problems you have highlighted (plus about 100 more).

Please Naim can you acknowledge your loyal customers on the forums and give us some confidence you are actually going to fix this stuff?

I'm sorry folks but I just don't get this.

The phrase computer illiterate was virtually invented for my wife but she can happily sit with an iPad play what music she wants either by track or by album or on iradio, switch between our 2 Naim streamers and is happy as a sandboy. She doesn't know what UPNP is and she doesn't care, she just loves it.

As for me, I have no problems whatsoever, full stop.

Our user experience is fine. Perhaps we don't have your high standards.

Camlan,

It warms my heart to hear you say that.  I'm gonna need  people like you.

I don't quite understand.  You are going to dump everything because the streaming aspect isn't up to par?

there are plenty of other streaming solutions that could feed Naim equipment.  Maybe just strip away the streaming aspect of the Naim and leave pre/power/DACs in place.  

Hi Dunstan,

I am afraid that I have to agree with Camlan. I use both a Linn streamer (with either Kinsky or Kazoo) and a Naim streamer (with a choice of the Naim App or nStream (on separate iPads)), and I have absolutely no problems or issues with any of the software. UPNP with any of the above hardware/software combinations works just fine for me - every bit as good as the Spotify app I now also have (courtesy of Naim).

I am struggling to understand the problem. However, it appears to be a problem experienced by a sizable group of users, which makes it all the more odd that others don't experience any problems. Possibly an issue with your network set-up or choice of UPNP software?

+1

Since you obviously enjoy irony, I would be tempted to say that if t you can't get on with the Naim app you might find using eBay something of a challenge!

Ouch, that actually made me laugh out loud

You can rename the UPNP input - mine is called Unitiserve.

Trouble is, we all have different issues. For me, it's lack of integration with Qobuz or Tidal.

I've never tried to randomly play my entire digital collection.

Keith

Would it be too cheeky to suggest a return to a CDX2? The 'user-interface' on that seems pretty simple. 

I can understand the OP feelings. I have to force-quit nStream multiple times a day.  Sometimes it does not work at all.  Never fell in love with the new version and the small type. The older app was much better.  

Give her the Naim remote control, I assume she can use a CD player; the remote is pretty much as easy as that. 

If it isn't that simple, then it's your tagging that's the issue.

+1.

+1 & I cannot understand or accept that people can't use it. 

If you don't like the name UPnP, rename it,  mine's called NAS.   USB, iRadio & Spotify & can also be renamed if you wish, I've added FM Tuner & TV, whats so hard about that?

However I do think Naim needs to smarten the app in a number of areas & in that respect this thread IMO is welcome,  assuming its contents are noted & acted on.

CDX2 is a viable solution, although random play is a hell of a chore! (not that we use random all the time,  but occasionally it is nice to be surprised by your own music collection and discover long forgotten corners). To be fair, the HDX system is less of a problem because n-serve is a bit more of a friendly interface.  The issue is n-stream.  

Just because n-stream is useable doesn't mean it is either comprehensive or good.  The tfl website is useable but it isn't a patch on Citymapper or as slick as the likes of Flipboard, Dropbox, Abbyy BCR, Uber or Endomomdo.  There are software music players out there that are slicker, cleaner, better functioned and more stable than n-stream and I think it's a shame we buy premium hifi and get second rate software.

AND... my point is that we don't touch the hardware any more, we only touch the software.  It the software is second rate there is always a risk the feeling starts to rub off on the hardware.

I've just put on Oxala (Portuguese for 'hoping') by Madredeus.  Glass of red wine.  That HDX DAC combo is awesome.  I'm calmer now... ready to face the eBay challenge!

As far as I'm concerned this disconnect is at the heart of the issue.

Its surprising how good music and a glass of wine can chill you out,  stay away from ebay though, its lethal 

When I have bough my first Naim components last year, I have consciously decided not to implement a streaming solution. Naim's approach towards streaming was not convincing, I very much dislike Apple iDevices and everyone had just bought or was about to buy a NAS or a streamer or both: very good reasons for me to stay away from streaming.

But to be fair I do not believe that "there are plenty of fantastic little music player apps out there". On the contrary, most of what I have checked is crap and in many cases crappier than Naim's app. The reasons why this is so are quite obvious: most applications are designed after Apple's iCrap UI for the mass consume of media contents. And this UI is not suitable for dedicated listening. On the top of that, developers have been focusing on adding all sort of features (internet radio, HR audio and, coming next, video streaming, social media, etc.) and not on fundamentals. And, to be fair, this focus is quite understandable considering that everyone wants to join the streamers mainstream and that these are the features the mainstream wants.

Maybe you should look at Naim's app from a different angle. The situation is hopeless but not serious: you are running a prototype, almost undocumented app on a crippled-down leading-edge computer running a crap OS. There is almost nothing customizable in your control app, nothing that can be set to fit your needs. You cannot select search criteria that suit your personal way of organizing your music collection, you cannot organize your UI into "search", "browse", "play", "help" or "whatever you need" pages or layers or sections, you cannot even use your iCrap to acces the booklet of the album you are playing (which is possibly buried in the same folder on your NAS). These deficiencies are much worse than unnamed buttons, upnp collections and lack of random play capabilities. If this is what bothers you, you are fine! It can be easily fixed. Keep your gear and look forward the next software upgrade! Best, nbpf

I understand where the OP is coming from. The app is bloody awful IME but we're all different and we all want different things. Much as it exasperates me, I am not about to give my system up. I did spend some time with a Linn Exakt system  and I was hugely impressed. But good though it was, it didn't have (to my ears) the visceral communication that I like so much from my present system.

Superficially it appears (incorrectly, but perception can be a good substitute for fact) that in order to squeeze in low quality Spotify integration (which doesn't personally interest me), other app features have been thrown out. We seem to he heading for the bottom. Linn's old app, let alone the clever new one, stomps all over it and then craps on it for good measure. It's embarrassing. So does Sonos. 

I think the motivation to wake up will come if the press or other influential people/organisations start loudly criticizing the app and subtracting marks from the hardware because the app is not considered of sufficient quality. That'll get attention, although the horse will be in the process of exiting the stable by then. It might never happen. 

Harry originally posted:

"Linn's old app, let alone the clever new one, stomps all over it and then craps on it for good measure. It's embarrassing. So does Sonos"

Now, this is strange! I have a Linn Klimax streamer in one of my systems and use both 'Kinsky' and their newer 'Kazoo' apps. However, I also use a Naim streamer with both nStream and Naim apps in my other system, and I find that they are equally (or at least almost as) good as the Linn counterparts.

I certainly don't feel that the Linn apps "stomp all over" the Naim equivalents.

I really don't get it!

I think we should respect the OP's original sentiments regarding the difficulty they are experiencing rather than offer counter-examples as to why their view may not be valid.

Dunstan has taken the time to write a lengthy post and I suspect this is borne out of substantial frustration.

The many many posts on this forum citing difficulties and frustrations with the software suggest this is a real problem. Poor app reviews on Google and Apple stores only back this up.

If you are happy then that's great, but some comments on this and similar topics seem a bit patronising and miss the point.

Hi Dunstan,

Oohh; RAM 150's eh? Auxiliary bass radiator! There's a blast from the past. RAM was a local company to me in the 1970's. Started by two guys who worked in a local independent Hi-Fi shop.

Naim have no option but to run with streaming audio or fall off the edge of the cliff. Did you see the recent excellent 'Sound of Song' series on BBC4? The third episode made the point that the launch of the Compact Disc format was all about reinvigorating the music-sales market, and not about sound quality.

We currently have the same situation with streaming audio. It arguably has advantages, but does not sound better than CD. It's simply the shiny new-tech alternative to grab business. I have no interest in it and love my Naim CD players. They are simple to operate; reliable, and utterly faff-free.

Your wife's example is a fine illustration of what is wrong with streaming audio. It simply should not be this complicated to enjoy music at home. One's sound system now needs to spew around the house. It used to be contained in one place. Progress? Streaming is okay if one enjoys 'playing computers'. And of course it's good for dealers because it requires pertinent knowledge and experience. As a committed audiophile of forty years plus; I couldn't get a streaming system up and running without help.

Posts such as yours are not uncommon. It's not Naim's fault - anything computer/internet related has the potential to be cranky, and/or fall over; though many users report satisfaction with their Naim streaming kit. My phone line has just been down for 27 hours. That would have been my music listening screwed. I use iTunes to buy music and rip CD's to my iMac. iTunes is a thing of visual and operational beauty because of Apple's software budget. How do you reckon Naim's software budget compares? I think we have a fair idea.

Audiophiles seem currently to be stuck in a half-way house, technologically. One day; there will hopefully be a streaming standard and equipment which is as easy to bring home and connect up, as a CD player. The really daft thing with streaming, is that most users are feeding the system with 'old fashioned' CD's. Just play 'em - it's so much simpler; and how they were designed to work.

Don't lose heart and blame Naim - they are just following market forces to stay in business, and I really hope that they can ride this bucking bronco into some sort of stability. You still have the opportunity to grab a really nice CD player - but probably not for much longer. WIGIG!

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

John.

One has a pretty small pool of options for 'random play' on a cd player.  n=number of tracks on the single cd that happens to be in the player.

When the OP of a particular 'difficulties' post sticks around, it turns out that almost always the problem lies other than in the Naim hardware or software.  I can only conclude that (1) people who have no knowledge whatsover of even the basics of home networking need some help with it, and (2) any dealer that would send a customer home with any brand of streaming product without inquiring of the customers facility with home networking should be removed from the dealer network. 

The Naim software absolutely works as intended.  I cannot get mine not to work.  I can open the Naim App on my iPhone, or iPad, and find just what I want to listen to and play it 100% of the time.  I cannot get it not to work.

I am not denying that others have issues, but I can state with confidence that the issues are not due to Naim hardware or software.  People buy and try to use all sorts of crap nas's.  They connect an ethernet patch cord from a laptop running iTunes to a ND5XS and post that their ND5XS doesn't work.  They connect a usb drive to a Naim player and bitch and moan that iTunes can't control it.  It's mostly not their fault; the vendor needed to have set them up for success, not left them floundering into failure.

Dunstan, I'm quite confident that your wife is competent to learn how to play music using the current Naim app.  INVEST maybe 10 minutes in it.  (I like that some of the controls don't have big text labels that would clutter my iPhone screen.)  There are probably 4 things she needs to learn how to do.  (1) Browse the music contents. (2) Identify what she wants to play.  (3) Play it.  (I'll leave room for a 4th, unknown, action.)  INVEST the time into learning the app.  Honestly, it's not more than 10 minutes.