Thinking of abandoning Naim after 35 years

Posted by: Dunstan on 05 February 2015

Virtually all my musical audio pleasure since leaving University has had Naim pre- and power- amplification in it, from a Sondek driving a 42-110 combo in 1985 (then another 42-110 when the first one got stolen) Then an CDX2, XPS2, 202, 250-2, NAPSC, HICAP2, subsequently upgraded to HDX with DAC in place of the CDX2.  Now a SuperUniti graces a small second property.

 

It's all lovely stuff and it is a privilege to be able to afford it and enjoy it.  My daughter inherited the 42-110 and still sounds good sitting at the back end of her apple mac and driving my ancient Ram 150 speakers.

 

By any standard I have been a faithful advocate of Naim hifi for over 30 years, but now I'm just about getting to the end of my tether and I am seriously thinking of heading for a different 'manufakturer'.  The sad thing is this frustration has nothing at all to do with hardware, no, it's that irritating little interface called n-stream that acts as a constant and frustrating barrier between my 400 albums and being able to listen to them.

 

There is plenty of screen 'real estate', even on my iPad mini, so why can't I have an omnipresent area for controls (volume and input), a playlist, the album list and some info on the current album?  Why do I have to press un named buttons in the corner for the screen to flip over, or swipe left and right to swap from upnp to the television?  Why is my music collection even called upnp, my wife has no idea what this means?  Why can't I random play my whole music collection, or just my chosen genre or artist?  Why were all these things better on the previous version of n-stream than they are on the new version?  There are plenty of fantastic little music player apps out there so why is Naim creating rubbish software from scratch when an alliance that leverages someone else's skills would be simpler and provide a better result?

 

My wife is no technophobe - she plans London journeys with Citymapper (just about the best app you can imagine), reads the news on Flipboard and trades shares on the HL app.  However, without me there she never listens to our own music on the SuperUniti because she can't figure out the n-stream app - she just puts on Radio Paradise from the remote control.

 

Isn't that just a ridiculous situation?  Naim products have an enviable reputation for revealing the music, but the software is doing its best to hide it.

 

 

Posted on: 08 February 2015 by Penarth Blues
Originally Posted by Marky Mark:

It is the buyer's mistake to buy something which doesn't have the functionality they need. Is anyone really saying they were willfully misled in making their purchase?

 

Some have chosen to ignore advice, still applicable today, to go with Sonos. It works with or without a NDS. By using it for streaming duties only you can separate the streamer and the dac. This enables you to adjust the component parts as and when you choose.

 

You can get one second-hand for about £100.

I understand the point you are making but Clive B has it right above - Naim were, and are, claiming to be producing streaming products for the future.

 

As I have already noted above, I believe Naim know what they are doing and I am not too worried that their current equipment will not be able to deal with the new streaming services. I just wish they'd come out and state that to remove any uncertainty. For instance, who'd buy an NDS at this precise moment in time without that reassurance?

Posted on: 08 February 2015 by George J

Some of us never believed this in the first place. That does not make us particularly wise, but only slightly wiser than those who did.

 

ATB from George

Posted on: 08 February 2015 by Paul Stephenson
School boy error, ha you guys...
When i get home and press play it will still be the best streaming device on the market today imho ( for music playback)my previous posts outlined our intentions to add more streaming services, with who and when are covered by nda agreements. Some of the players you see today may not even survive, it will be interesting to see where Apple and google go with services but in the meantime we are doing what we need to. We believe the connect route by spotify is the most satisfactory implementation and others will surely follow.
Posted on: 08 February 2015 by Paul Stephenson
School boy error, ha you guys...
When i get home and press play it will still be the best streaming device on the market today imho ( for music playback)my previous posts outlined our intentions to add more streaming services, with who and when are covered by nda agreements. Some of the players you see today may not even survive, it will be interesting to see where Apple and google go with services but in the meantime we are doing what we need to. We believe the connect route by spotify is the most satisfactory implementation and others will surely follow.
Posted on: 08 February 2015 by dayjay
Originally Posted by Penarth Blues:
Originally Posted by Marky Mark:

It is the buyer's mistake to buy something which doesn't have the functionality they need. Is anyone really saying they were willfully misled in making their purchase?

 

Some have chosen to ignore advice, still applicable today, to go with Sonos. It works with or without a NDS. By using it for streaming duties only you can separate the streamer and the dac. This enables you to adjust the component parts as and when you choose.

 

You can get one second-hand for about £100.

I understand the point you are making but Clive B has it right above - Naim were, and are, claiming to be producing streaming products for the future.

 

As I have already noted above, I believe Naim know what they are doing and I am not too worried that their current equipment will not be able to deal with the new streaming services. I just wish they'd come out and state that to remove any uncertainty. For instance, who'd buy an NDS at this precise moment in time without that reassurance?

If I could afford one I would in a heartbeat because it already does brilliantly what I would want it to do which is to play music from my nas.  This is what it is currently sold to do and it would fit my needs perfectly.  I'm not especially bothered about streaming from qobuz etc, I prefer to own the files and I only use spotify to test music before I buy. Equally the app is clunky and doesn't do some things I'd like it to do but it fulfills its primary purpose,  for me anyway,  which is to play my music.  It all depends what you want as a buyer at the time you buy. Future developments are nice for me but not essential if the device delivers what I bought It to do.  Others have different needs which include future development which is their right but its a risky strategy when spending on very expensive devices without knowing that those developments are possible and included in the price

Posted on: 08 February 2015 by Harry
As far as the sonic performance of the NDS is concerned, there was never any doubt, but I would like the same app functionality I had when I bought the NDS. Not less. That doesn't seem so unreasonable, although to date it's proved impossible.

 

 

Posted on: 08 February 2015 by Penarth Blues
Originally Posted by Paul Stephenson:
School boy error, ha you guys...
When i get home and press play it will still be the best streaming device on the market today imho ( for music playback)my previous posts outlined our intentions to add more streaming services, with who and when are covered by nda agreements. Some of the players you see today may not even survive, it will be interesting to see where Apple and google go with services but in the meantime we are doing what we need to. We believe the connect route by spotify is the most satisfactory implementation and others will surely follow.

And there's the answer we all wanted... 

 

Thanks for taking time out of your break to put this one to rest - enjoy the Jamaican sunshine!

Posted on: 08 February 2015 by KRM

So there we go - the "connect route" it is. 

 

Clearly, some will be disappointed that they won't be fully integrating services. Paul will say it's the best way and the least compromised and others will suspect we has no choice due to decisions made in the past.

 

Either way, I'm ok with it, so long as it happens and happens soon. I like the Spotify Connect feature; I just don't like the sound quality. Qobuz have greatly improved their app in the last few weeks (in fact, it looks uncannily like nStream!). The main thing is that they find a way of making it sound good. The worry is that Naim's solution relies on either on someone else coping Spotify or Spotify introducing FLAC streaming. Fingers crossed!

 

Keith

Posted on: 08 February 2015 by Penarth Blues
Originally Posted by KRM:

So there we go - the "connect route" it is. 

 

Clearly, some will be disappointed that they won't be fully integrating services. Paul will say it's the best way and the least compromised and others will suspect we has no choice due to decisions made in the past.

 

Either way, I'm ok with it, so long as it happens and happens soon. I like the Spotify Connect feature; I just don't like the sound quality. Qobuz have greatly improved their app in the last few weeks (in fact, it looks uncannily like nStream!). The main thing is that they find a way of making it sound good. The worry is that Naim's solution relies on either on someone else coping Spotify or Spotify introducing FLAC streaming. Fingers crossed!

 

Keith

If a higher quality 'Connect' approach is used for better quality streams then that sounds sensible to me. I like the Spotify service and if the hardware can deal with choice of multiple services then I'd expect no more at this stage.

 

I am sure software is being developed which would work over the top of all this to integrate various streaming data sources to allow the end users to assemble playlists as they wish.

 

Happy days - I'm looking forward to lossless streaming become available now :-)

Posted on: 08 February 2015 by The Meerkat

"Some of the players you see today may not even survive"

 

I'm not 100% sure what Paul is implying here?

Posted on: 08 February 2015 by KRM

Hi Penarth,

 

I think Paul is explicitly excluding the integration of various streams. The connect approach means you use the app. for each service provider.

 

It also means that Naim is relying on providers developing connect functionality. If none do and if Spotify doesn't move to FLAC streaming then that's that.

 

Keith

Posted on: 08 February 2015 by Noogle
Originally Posted by The Meerkat:

"Some of the players you see today may not even survive"

 

I'm not 100% sure what Paul is implying here?

I think he means some of the players in the industry may not survive - e.g. AFAIK Quobuz's financials aren't great.

Posted on: 08 February 2015 by KRM

All the players are losing money and he's implying that this is a problem.

 

Keith

Posted on: 08 February 2015 by The Meerkat

KRM & Noogle...Thanks

 

Posted on: 08 February 2015 by MikeT.
Originally Posted by Hook:
Originally Posted by Noogle:
Originally Posted by The Meerkat:

"Some of the players you see today may not even survive"

 

I'm not 100% sure what Paul is implying here?

I think he means some of the players in the industry may not survive - e.g. AFAIK Quobuz's financials aren't great.

 

Yes, but at least Qobuz will be delivering "Qobuz Connect".  Late last year, there was an announcement of support in the latest JukeBlox chip.

 

Paul seems to be saying that native service integration is not going to happen. Also, despite the advantages Simon outlined, I get the feeling that Naim is not interested in competing with Sonos in the streaming service aggregation business. What Naim can do is repeat what they've done with Spotify. But for that to happen, the lossless streaming service must first provide a "connect" protocol where the phone or tablet performs all the control functions, but the music itself is streamed from the service's cloud directly to the Naim network player. 

 

Unfortunately, a Google search does give me any evidence that Tidal or Deezer are working on anything like this. So either they are not, or at the very least, they are well behind Spotify and Qobuz. I understand the appeal to Naim of this approach, and given so much depends on development by the streaming service, I can now understand why this process is taking so long.

 

Service aggregators like Sonos must hate this "connect" concept, as it effectively bypasses the need for their box. Still, I can imagine that even well into the future, there may only be a handful of services that follow the example set by Spotify and Qobuz. As far as I can tell, each "connect" is a one-off that is application specific. Given that, perhaps the need for a Sonos will not go away any tim

Yes, but at least Qobuz is working on "Qobuz Connect".  Late last year, there was an announcement of support in the latest JukeBlox chip.

 

Paul seems to be saying that native integration is not going to happen. Also, despite the advantages Simon outlined, I get the feeling that Naim is not interested in competing with Sonos for the streaming service aggregation business. Naim can repeat what they've done with Spotify, but for that to happen, the lossless streaming service must provide a "connect" architecture where the phone or tablet performs all the control functions, while the music itself is streamed from the service's cloud server directly to the Naim network player. 

 

Unfortunately, a Google search does give me any evidence that Tidal or Deezer are working on something like this. So either they are not, or at the very least, they are well behind Spotify and Qobuz. While I understand the appeal to Naim of this approach, I think I can now understand why this process is taking so long.

 

Service aggregators like Sonos must hate this "connect" concept, as it effectively bypasses the need for their box. Still, I can imagine that even well into the future, there may only be a handful of services that follow the example set by Spotify and Qobuz. As far as I can tell, each "connect" architexture is a new effort and application specific. Given that, I doubt the need for a Sonos will go away any time soon.

 

Hook

Spotify CEO Daniel Ek has revealed that lossless music is on the agenda in discussions between the music streaming service and record labels concerning how the service can offer more to premium subscribers.
Read more at http://www.whathifi.com/news/s...#UYjH0tSWoBrf2ia5.99

 

Maybe Naim is onto something?

Posted on: 08 February 2015 by Hook
Originally Posted by Hook:
Originally Posted by Noogle:
Originally Posted by The Meerkat:

"Some of the players you see today may not even survive"

 

I'm not 100% sure what Paul is implying here?

I think he means some of the players in the industry may not survive - e.g. AFAIK Quobuz's financials aren't great.

 

Yes, but at least Qobuz will be delivering "Qobuz Connect".  Late last year, there was an announcement of support in the latest JukeBlox chip.

 

Paul seems to be saying that native service integration is not going to happen. Also, despite the advantages Simon outlined, I get the feeling that Naim is not interested in competing with Sonos in the streaming service aggregation business. What Naim can do is repeat what they've done with Spotify. But for that to happen, the lossless streaming service must first provide a "connect" protocol where the phone or tablet performs all the control functions, but the music itself is streamed from the service's cloud directly to the Naim network player. 

 

Unfortunately, a Google search does give me any evidence that Tidal or Deezer are working on anything like this. So either they are not, or at the very least, they are well behind Spotify and Qobuz. I understand the appeal to Naim of this approach, and given so much depends on development by the streaming service, I can now understand why this process is taking so long.

 

Service aggregators like Sonos must hate this "connect" concept, as it effectively bypasses the need for their box. Still, I can imagine that even well into the future, there may only be a handful of services that follow the example set by Spotify and Qobuz. As far as I can tell, each "connect" is a one-off that is application specific. Given that, perhaps the need for a Sonos will not go away any time soon.

 

Hook

 

Have deleted my last post and edited it as above. Looked fine when I originally submitted from my laptop, but now that I look again on my iPad, it appears that I somehow posted all the text twice.

Posted on: 08 February 2015 by DrPo

I have read this thread with great interest late last night. Although the OP focuses on the "front end app" topic the majority of the posts are on the touchy topic of integrating lossless services and the potential technical limitations of the current streamers to handle such requirements. My few deductions:

 

  • NAIM, not being a primarily S/W company have some difficulty putting out the best app possible. 
  • by the same token (which I have stressed in a similar thread) they cannot compete with e.g. SONOS in creating an "services hub shoe box". Hence I understand why they prefer to go the "connect route". Apparently this poses less demands on the development skills, does not detract them from their core business (e.g. Development remains a side competence and does not become a core business). As an once upon the time Integration consultant I have been preaching the merits of Module View Controller design so as to reuse existing applications so I cannot fault NAIM for that choice.
  • that being said I still don't see Paul explicitly addressing Allen's question on the alleged memory limitation as a potential limiting factor. This has nothing to do with NDAs and I too would have preferred a direct answer. I would not ditch my NDX even if that were the case (I might in fact get my chance at the NDS of someone that does:-)) but I deserve to know the truth.
Posted on: 08 February 2015 by Simon-in-Suffolk

The disadvantage of the 'Connect' route is that it is ultimately limiting IMO ... as many / most? services will see it as a legacy approach and opt for a more open web services integration. Further I think the software development cycle will be more challenging, not a great strategy for Naim, as the service engine will need to developed and tested for each network device. A common hub/integrator will act as a service manager and simplify service integration and development.. Certainly more ideal where services might come and go as implied. This approach is one I use in my day job for web service integration... It's a lot more efficient and easier to develop and integration test than a distributed service connectivity model. 

 

But so be it, we have now heard from Paul  that the bespoke service queue list  pull method , or 'Connect' model is the way forward cor Naim.. Ok it will be nice for Naim to demonstrate this by introducing some new service connectivity .. I just hope it's not too restrictive and limiting or complex to deliver resulting in lengthy delays.

 

Simon

Posted on: 08 February 2015 by Simon-in-Suffolk

Allen I suspect Naim and streaming services will not, with the currently stated strategy from Paul, be good bed fellows.

I think for general web services streaming, for those who want to enjoy that format, the best way forward would appear to be to use a non Naim solution which of course you can connect to your Naim amplification etc..

 

Those SPDIF inputs and analogue NAC inputs are there for a reason 

 

Simon

Posted on: 08 February 2015 by KRM

Presumably, multiple connect splutions would only impact memory if you listened to more than one at a time, which wound sound terrible?

 

Keith

Posted on: 08 February 2015 by jfritzen

When N manufacturers (Naim, Linn, Pioneer, Sony, etc etc) need to support M streaming providers (Tidal, Spotify, Qobuz, Deezer, Simfy etc etc) this is bound to lead to absolute chaos for the consumer. 

 

There needs to be a streaming standard across providers.

Posted on: 08 February 2015 by KRM

Also, Paul's best bet, currently, is Qobuz, yet he mentions Apple and Google, so he seems to be thinking about multiple connections.

 

And, he has effectively told us that the Muso will follow the same path, assuming to too complies with Naim's preferred strategy.

 

Keith

Posted on: 08 February 2015 by Simon-in-Suffolk

There is a standard that they all use.. It's the web services interfaces using W3C  using SOAP and HTTP. Long gone of the days of bespoke coded interfaces.. We are talking implemenrtation now, and each service will have its differentiation and preferred way of doing things using the standardised interfaces. But most music streaming services appear quite similar, such is the way of web service integration today.

Simon

Posted on: 08 February 2015 by KRM

Hi Allen,

 

I have been following the Naim model when updating my iPad of late, due to memory issues (ie downloading on the Mac). It doesn't mean I can't have multiple apps open On the iPad.

 

I understand and agree with most if not all of what you say. However, neither of us know if the streamers have  enough memory for multiple connects. I suspect this is an issue for streamer integration, though.

 

Keit

 

 

Posted on: 08 February 2015 by Simon-in-Suffolk

Allen, or develop niche followings or musician archives.. Just look at SoundCloud for example which I think I am right launched some time before  Spotify . Music doesn't have to be all about big labels thank God..