Thinking of abandoning Naim after 35 years
Posted by: Dunstan on 05 February 2015
Virtually all my musical audio pleasure since leaving University has had Naim pre- and power- amplification in it, from a Sondek driving a 42-110 combo in 1985 (then another 42-110 when the first one got stolen) Then an CDX2, XPS2, 202, 250-2, NAPSC, HICAP2, subsequently upgraded to HDX with DAC in place of the CDX2. Now a SuperUniti graces a small second property.
It's all lovely stuff and it is a privilege to be able to afford it and enjoy it. My daughter inherited the 42-110 and still sounds good sitting at the back end of her apple mac and driving my ancient Ram 150 speakers.
By any standard I have been a faithful advocate of Naim hifi for over 30 years, but now I'm just about getting to the end of my tether and I am seriously thinking of heading for a different 'manufakturer'. The sad thing is this frustration has nothing at all to do with hardware, no, it's that irritating little interface called n-stream that acts as a constant and frustrating barrier between my 400 albums and being able to listen to them.
There is plenty of screen 'real estate', even on my iPad mini, so why can't I have an omnipresent area for controls (volume and input), a playlist, the album list and some info on the current album? Why do I have to press un named buttons in the corner for the screen to flip over, or swipe left and right to swap from upnp to the television? Why is my music collection even called upnp, my wife has no idea what this means? Why can't I random play my whole music collection, or just my chosen genre or artist? Why were all these things better on the previous version of n-stream than they are on the new version? There are plenty of fantastic little music player apps out there so why is Naim creating rubbish software from scratch when an alliance that leverages someone else's skills would be simpler and provide a better result?
My wife is no technophobe - she plans London journeys with Citymapper (just about the best app you can imagine), reads the news on Flipboard and trades shares on the HL app. However, without me there she never listens to our own music on the SuperUniti because she can't figure out the n-stream app - she just puts on Radio Paradise from the remote control.
Isn't that just a ridiculous situation? Naim products have an enviable reputation for revealing the music, but the software is doing its best to hide it.
We would have to change inputs when we change from, say, Spotify to Qobuz, which would clear the playlist queue. Therefore, this approach would clear the current queue and use less memory, I would have thought.
Keith
I understand and agree with most if not all of what you say. However, neither of us know if the streamers have enough memory for multiple connects. I suspect this is an issue for streamer integration, though.
Hi Keith, the code for the different Connect interfaces will look quite similar.. As said before they all use standardised web services. However I suspect it will be the little things like different timings and exceptions that will be Achilles heal.. In a software environment with limited space and resources this can be difficult to manage effectively. (Again why head ends are attractive architecturally)
Allen, or develop niche followings or musician archives.. Just look at SoundCloud for example. Music doesn't have to be all about big labels thank God..
Amen to that! But, for me, I don't mind having many niche streaming providers, my taste in music often dictates that, but one has to draw a line on how many monthly subscriptions one is willing to fork out on. And Naim, it seems, will never be able to aggregate those services into multiple source playlists. A big drawback if you want to pull together niche sources.
Indeed, but some services such as SoundCloud are free to use.. and they have some lossless. It's funded by musicians, it's like a musician's shop window to show off your artistic talents, get noticed and whet your appetite. It's great for new music and ideas.
When N manufacturers (Naim, Linn, Pioneer, Sony, etc etc) need to support M streaming providers (Tidal, Spotify, Qobuz, Deezer, Simfy etc etc) this is bound to lead to absolute chaos for the consumer.
There needs to be a streaming standard across providers.
We could call it FM.
Allen, and at the end of the day that what it is all about.. Appreciating and enjoying music .. Rather than what are the best business models for big business.
Big business might want control and stickiness, I guess many if not most artists want flexibility and a platform to be heard and appreciated.. and ultimately make a living... i want to back the artist's horse.. don't get me wrong there is clearly an essential role for the publisher and distributor.. but in the world with the WWW I want to choose how I appreciate my music rather than be dictated to 1980s style.
Simon
Why, when you were buying, didn't you buy a Linn streamer?
Sorry George, that's way over-simplified.
AllenB, I very much sympathize ...
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... Which, of course, does not imply they should be silent.
Well nbpf, I hold my hands up. I was one of the main proponents of the NDS, I badgered Naim to put the best of NDX and nDAC together in one unit, it happened, I was very happy. I wrote about a 'retirement village' as a paradigm for, until something significantly better arrived on the market-place, that the NDS was at a level that could satisfy for a long time.
And that still stands, it's SQ is still exemplary. It does lossless streaming, and that will be the case if Spotify ups the game to lossless, as I have no doubt it will eventually. But can it add further services? That's what I need to know. Not when necessarily, but just is it possible? Without a hardware upgrade?
The controlling software is to a certain extent a different issue, Naim have a unified app for all it's streamers. Is this shackled by the lowest common denominator in firmware stakes?
I will only start pointing fingers if this hardware cannot be upgraded. It might actually be irrelevant if my NDS has been sold already. By then, any trust will have been broken.
What trust you might ask? Well, in 35 years or so of Naim ownership, they have usually (but not always) provided the necessary upgrades, and they will usually give reasonable fair notice that a range or series of products are going to be supplanted, the change from olive to current reference being a case in point. It's not always happy days all round, but customers had a reasonably clear idea of what Naim had on offer, or even soon to be released.
Those days have gone since distributed audio hit the Naim catalogue of products.
AllenB, my experience with Naim is very limited, I have to admit. I have bought my first Naim box, a SN2, only last spring. An nDAC and the S400s have meanwhile followed. But at the time I bought the SN2, I had already spent about one year parsing the user guides of all Naim (and a few non-Naim) streamers, dacs and servers and trying to figure out what I actually wanted to buy.
I might be completely mistaken but my understanding was (is) that the NDS is a dedicated UPnP client + dac. As I mentioned, I do not understand why one might want to feed a dac via a UPnP client from a local UPnP server. But if one does so, I think the NDS is an excellent proposition. It might bee a too narrow viewpoint, but I have understood the NDS as a kind of demonstrator of what can be achieved sound quality wise with a dedicated streaming solution.
The question you raise is, again, if I am not mistaken, whether the NDS firmware can be upgraded to support future remote lossless streaming services. I think the answer cannot be positive in general but I sincerely hope it is positive for those streaming services you are particularly interested in. And, of course, I hope that Naim will provide such upgrades and that these will not bring drawbacks in sound quality.
At the same time, I believe that squeezing support for more and more functionalities into the firmware of a streamlined, dedicated UPnP client + dac is not at all a good proposition. And I could understand if there was a threeshold Naim would not be prepared to cross: there is an obvious tradeoff between performance and flexibility that asks for a clearcut separation of concerns. I am convinced that users who are interested in the integration of (lossless) remote streaming services (and, maybe later, of other services) into their UPnP client + dac devices would be better served if Naim would take a more clearcut approach.
What I mean by clearcut approach is something I have argued for in another thread: Naim should put a standard, off-the-shelf multicore mainboard into a uServe-like box with high quality dedicated outputs for the nDAC, for the dac sections of their streamers and, hopefully, for an nDAC 2. A kind of "Naim appliance", so to say.
This would be a straightforward, future-proof and easily implementable proposition. It would realize a clearcut separation between software development concerns (a domain Naim might not want to invest a too large amount of resources into) and hardware development concern: the domain Naim is traditionally very good at. A Naim appliance could run an open OS and provide a clear, flexible interface for software developers. It could take advantage of already existing integration tools (Mopidy, for instance) and Naim could still provide basic proprietary applications to control the appliance from iOS and Android devices. But it would be able to take advantage from collaborative efforts to port new services to their rendering devices and, finally, boost their sales.
Those SPDIF inputs and analogue NAC inputs are there for a reason 
+1
There is a standard that they all use.. It's the web services interfaces using W3C using SOAP and HTTP. Long gone of the days of bespoke coded interfaces.. We are talking implemenrtation now, and each service will have its differentiation and preferred way of doing things using the standardised interfaces. But most music streaming services appear quite similar, such is the way of web service integration today.
Simon
Sadly although the protocols are defined, the conveyed data packets are all over the place (and just saying that XML is self-describing is a delusion). And that's not even considering the handling of binary data or the multiple security conventions.
In fact I came across a SOAP interface from a reputable supplier with multi-billion dollar investment in IT where the WSDL could only be obtained by making a SOAP call to the WS. Like that's going to work; and, they couldn't even see the problem.
So it may be described as a bed of roses, but they aren't thorn-less and they aren't going to bloom any time soon!
Maybe the answer is for the hardware manufacturers to set up their own service aggregation sites, to which their equipment connects by a private protocol. The aggregation site can then act as a translating proxy to the commercial steam providers, and as a manufacture specific reseller of the streamed data.
This way the only thing that needs to change to support a new provider is the code on the aggregator site (which is a lot easier to change and test than firmware).
As the aggregator is doing so much work for the commercial steam providers, they should be able to negotiate preferential rates. This should allow them to use the margin to fund the maintenance and development of the site.
Maybe the answer is for the hardware manufacturers to set up their own service aggregation sites, to which their equipment connects by a private protocol. The aggregation site can then act as a translating proxy to the commercial steam providers, and as a manufacture specific reseller of the streamed data.
This way the only thing that needs to change to support a new provider is the code on the aggregator site (which is a lot easier to change and test than firmware).
As the aggregator is doing so much work for the commercial steam providers, they should be able to negotiate preferential rates. This should allow them to use the margin to fund the maintenance and development of the site.
Would be a pain in the arse for Naim to set up and maintain their own multi-vendor streaming service - their primary expertise is in hardware manufacture. Also not sure they would make much from the margin as their volumes are so small. Maybe when there's a £199 Muso-lite being sold in Curry's...
What I mean by clearcut approach is something I have argued for in another thread: Naim should put a standard, off-the-shelf multicore mainboard into a uServe-like box with high quality dedicated outputs for the nDAC, for the dac sections of their streamers and, hopefully, for an nDAC 2. A kind of "Naim appliance", so to say.
Or "PC".
What I mean by clearcut approach is something I have argued for in another thread: Naim should put a standard, off-the-shelf multicore mainboard into a uServe-like box with high quality dedicated outputs for the nDAC, for the dac sections of their streamers and, hopefully, for an nDAC 2. A kind of "Naim appliance", so to say.
Or "PC".
Noogle, PCs and off-the-shelf microserver tend to have noisy power units, no or poor electical SPDIF outputs, no or poor optical SPDIF outputs, electrically noisy USB interfaces and acoustically noisy CPUs and fans. On the top of that, most PCs are aesthetically unacceptable.
CAPS servers, Vortexbox appliances, Naim uServe and a few others devices are designed to tackle some of these deficiencies. Naim could quite easily take advantage of his competence in manufacturing high quality hardware solutions to market an "open Naim box" with a clean power supply, high quality digital outputs and an open OS.
You could easily use the box as a dedicated music server or as a full fledged integrator of local and remote lossless streaming services or for something else. And if you have enough cash, you could buy a couple of these fancy little black boxes just for general purpose computing. Best, nbpf
What I mean by clearcut approach is something I have argued for in another thread: Naim should put a standard, off-the-shelf multicore mainboard into a uServe-like box with high quality dedicated outputs for the nDAC, for the dac sections of their streamers and, hopefully, for an nDAC 2. A kind of "Naim appliance", so to say.
Or "PC".
snip> Naim could quite easily take advantage of his competence in manufacturing high quality hardware solutions to market an "open Naim box" with a clean power supply, high quality digital outputs and an open OS.<snip
Something like this, perhaps (Bryston BDP-1USB or the BDP-2) :
Huge I agree to a point - however integration is hugely simplified, and the API types and flow methods are defined - as opposed to the days or yore using completely bespoke integration. But yes as per UPnP implementation the code driving and interpreting the interfaces is key.
Further some of the music services publish their web service APIs with example code to allow simplified coding and development. This aspect of integrated coding has transformed the inter connectivity of the web in my opinion over the last decade or so... certainly made my job easier,
Simon
@nbpf -
I'm not sure there's enough differentiation for Naim to make a play in the luxury audiophile PC market - its relatively easy to achieve all the features you list with pretty much commodity hardware. In the PC marketplace you have to run fast to stand still, so the product would rapidly become dated. Also, once you open the box up to adding additional programs/applications/browsers etc. it would become a support nightmare.
Having said that, I imagine Naim has made a lot of money out of the UnitiServe, which is just a repackaged PC running Windows (XP) Embedded and Digify.
As regards "poor quality SPDIF" from commodity PCs - if you choose e.g. SPDIF optical you have great electrical noise isolation and the output jitter doesn't matter since an asynchronous DAC has its own master clock. Similarly, USB and electrical SPDIF inputs have galvanic isolation in most DACs. I know this is heresy and the naked Emperor will have me beheaded, so I shall stop forthwith.
Devialet have announced a box similar to the one that nbpf describes. Called "Dialog" it provides a mesh network to link their Phantom active speakers, and together with their "Spark" control app supports streaming from hard drives and on-line music services. It is rumoured to use i.MX ARM-designed chips for core processing. Knowing Devialet I would expect the hardware implementation and sound quality to be excellent but would also expect some interesting early s/w 'features'.
To quote Devialet 'Dialog is entirely evolutive and continually upgrades itself to remain the best acoustic pleasure center imaginable'. i.e. updates are handled automatically on-line.
Deliveries start this month. The price .... €299
The Auralic Aries also provides decent functionality though from the comparisons with other streaming solutions that I've read may not quite deliver the best sound quality available.
Having said that, I imagine Naim has made a lot of money out of the UnitiServe, which is just a repackaged PC running Windows (XP) Embedded and Digify.
NOT "JUST A REPACKAGED PC" BY A LONG-SHOT.
Devialet have announced a box similar to the one that nbpf describes. Called "Dialog" it provides a mesh network to link their Phantom active speakers, and together with their "Spark" control app supports streaming from hard drives and on-line music services. It is rumoured to use i.MX ARM-designed chips for core processing. Knowing Devialet I would expect the hardware implementation and sound quality to be excellent but would also expect some interesting early s/w 'features'.
To quote Devialet 'Dialog is entirely evolutive and continually upgrades itself to remain the best acoustic pleasure center imaginable'. i.e. updates are handled automatically on-line.
Deliveries start this month. The price .... €299
He! He! I mentioned the Devialet Phantom much earlier as I believe it presents an image of future high end audio. Personally, I think that all the stuff about who is streaming what and all the protocols involved is so much smoke. As someone else has pointed out, the APIs and protocols are well defined and all Naim has to do is pick them up, transform them from digital to analogue and present the user with pure music as always.
Formerly, everyone would get excited about Goldring or Shure cartridges and what they presented to the pre-amp or amp and now it is all about what the DAC does to the presented bitstream. I think everyone here has heard of the Chord Hugo and its perceived benefits. Forget about Tidal or Spotify or Deezer as technological challenges for Naim and let Naim focus on taking their streams and translating them as best they can. The so called Spotify integration on the Naim App I could use with my Muso appears to do not much other than transfer me to the Spotify application.
The Auralic Aries also provides decent functionality though from the comparisons with other streaming solutions that I've read may not quite deliver the best sound quality available.
I've not heard it, but I have lived with the Bryston BDP-1USB. It's a lovely front end for a DAC, but still not as musically engaging as my repackaged PC running embedded Windows XP and Digify 
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As someone else has pointed out, the APIs and protocols are well defined and all Naim has to do is pick them up, transform them from digital to analogue and present the user with pure music as always.
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Aye, and there's the rub.
Each service is a new API or at least a new data/metadata format and requires interface changes.
Doing that in device firmware is very expensive, and requires large amounts of memory in the device's Micro-controller or DSP; and then requires a massive test effort as you have to completely re-test each device for which the new firmware is released.
... but still not as musically engaging as my repackaged PC...
That will be the Bryston 'house sound' coming though loud and clear!
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As someone else has pointed out, the APIs and protocols are well defined and all Naim has to do is pick them up, transform them from digital to analogue and present the user with pure music as always.
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Aye, and there's the rub.
Each service is a new API or at least a new data/metadata format and requires interface changes.
Doing that in device firmware is very expensive, and requires large amounts of memory in the device's Micro-controller or DSP; and then requires a massive test effort as you have to completely re-test each device for which the new firmware is released.
Ahem, I think you are quite wrong about that but I cannot necessarily prove it. The potentially very expensive development element that is outsourced by Naim will be the Burr Brown or Wolfson or whatever DACs. I think where we started on this long conversation was to do with the control mechanism for the streaming ie the iTunes or Tidal or Deezer front end to their streaming products. I do not own an NDS or HDX or whatever Naim used for their proprietary streaming hardware but I am aware of their software difficulties. Naim can take the stream from any of the proprietary streaming products and deal with it in the same fashion as they might deal with a Rega or Linn turntable. Naim did not have to build the turntable, they certainly did not build the basic CD drives but still delivered the musical goods. The fact that you use a Spotify or iTunes orTidal or Deezer front end from a PC or iPad or a Mac is, in my opinion, almost an irrelevance to Naim. Whether you present it to a Muso or a Statement it should be received and treated the same as if it was a CD or Vinyl In terms of analogue reproduction.
Virtually all my musical audio pleasure since leaving University has had Naim pre- and power- amplification in it, from a Sondek driving a 42-110 combo in 1985 (then another 42-110 when the first one got stolen) Then an CDX2, XPS2, 202, 250-2, NAPSC, HICAP2, subsequently upgraded to HDX with DAC in place of the CDX2. Now a SuperUniti graces a small second property.
It's all lovely stuff and it is a privilege to be able to afford it and enjoy it. My daughter inherited the 42-110 and still sounds good sitting at the back end of her apple mac and driving my ancient Ram 150 speakers.
By any standard I have been a faithful advocate of Naim hifi for over 30 years, but now I'm just about getting to the end of my tether and I am seriously thinking of heading for a different 'manufakturer'. The sad thing is this frustration has nothing at all to do with hardware, no, it's that irritating little interface called n-stream that acts as a constant and frustrating barrier between my 400 albums and being able to listen to them.
There is plenty of screen 'real estate', even on my iPad mini, so why can't I have an omnipresent area for controls (volume and input), a playlist, the album list and some info on the current album? Why do I have to press un named buttons in the corner for the screen to flip over, or swipe left and right to swap from upnp to the television? Why is my music collection even called upnp, my wife has no idea what this means? Why can't I random play my whole music collection, or just my chosen genre or artist? Why were all these things better on the previous version of n-stream than they are on the new version? There are plenty of fantastic little music player apps out there so why is Naim creating rubbish software from scratch when an alliance that leverages someone else's skills would be simpler and provide a better result?
My wife is no technophobe - she plans London journeys with Citymapper (just about the best app you can imagine), reads the news on Flipboard and trades shares on the HL app. However, without me there she never listens to our own music on the SuperUniti because she can't figure out the n-stream app - she just puts on Radio Paradise from the remote control.
Isn't that just a ridiculous situation? Naim products have an enviable reputation for revealing the music, but the software is doing its best to hide it.
Firstly, you don't need to use the Naim app.
The random play limitation you think is the app is in fact a hardware limitation, the streamer can only take a maximum of 500 songs and it was therefore the same with the old app. It will be the same with a new app even if Bill Gates and the ghost of Steve Jobs make it.
If I want to random play my whole collection I use BubbleUPnP (Universal Plug n' Play) although that only supports Android tablets and phones.
The best way to learn to use this app, any app, is to get on it and press every button. You effectively learn from your own mistakes.