Thinking of abandoning Naim after 35 years

Phantoms are certainly not targeted at a traditional audiophile audience but do promise SQ significantly better than Bose/Sonos/Mu-so.  I certainly won't buy one if ethernet over mains is mandatory.  

The Dialog will be Devialet's hub for both Phantoms and their high-end integrated DAC-amps. My understanding is that Phantoms can be connected to a Dialog via ethernet over mains, Ethernet or Wi-Fi but the existing amplifiers will connect to the Dialog via USB (at launch) whilst wired ethernet and wi-Fi will be added later.

And no-one would expect you to touch anything that compels you to take Ethernet over mains. Do you really think that any company that has any pretensions to serious hifi would demand this? Can I suggest that you and Simon read the attached white paper before making assumptions and jumping to conclusions. I have never heard a Phantom but am going to give it a listen when I get the chance. I find the combination of analogue and digital amplification interesting and how did they build a product with no wires and only 11 discrete parts. 

Err. I don't think you read all my post. I said

" My understanding is that Phantoms can be connected to a Dialog via ethernet over mains, Ethernet or Wi-Fi but the existing amplifiers will connect to the Dialog via USB (at launch) whilst wired ethernet and wi-Fi will be added later.

I agree the technology included in Phantoms is amazing - I believe it's covered by 77 patents. I have a Dialog on order and can't wait to try It out. 

I would add that the information in the Phantom whitepaper is not clear as it implies that PLC is a required part of the network:

Okay dokay! ��

I think that you will find that this is belt and braces ie you can use any of the above combinations.

You seem to be very knowledgeable about this. How would you compare it to your current Naim kit? I note you don't list any in your profile so not sure what you are comparing it against.

Am afraid I make no pretensions to having great expertise in Naim equipment as I only have a Muso at the moment. Have been keen on HFi all of my adult life but financial and family considerations meant that the best I could do was a set of Tag McLaren separates, now in the loft alongside my ancient Linn Axis deck, and Castle speakers, which still front end my Onkyo AV system alongside PMCs and I think a Mission sub. As you can see, that lot is a huge compromise that eats up my front lounge but is more than fine for general purpose music and video. My Muso is in my back lounge also being a partial sound bar for the TV in there and I have a B&W A7 in my conservatory. My wife is very intolerant of racks and wires.

I have had had plenty chances to listen to Naim gear at my local HiFi store, have visited the Naim factory in Salisbury and heard the Statement at last year's Bristol HiFi show. Just nowhere at the moment to put a full blown system even if finances are not really a problem anymore. As I started in IT  with Assembler programming in the 70s, I have always enjoyed the practical application of computing, obviously in business for my career, but with the advent of CDs, digital storage and WiFi its application to HiFi has also intrigued me. Am a bit of a hybrid as it's the application side I enjoy not necessarily the machine code, the more elegant the better. 

Simon -

I accept you hear a difference.  Of course I'm not saying there is zero crosstalk between the DAC input buffer and clock.  Just as there isn't zero effect on your system when my wife switches on her hairdryer (through both RF and mains propagation).  Remember that a 'clean' de-jittered input waveform will also produce crosstalk.  In fact there may be more crosstalk from a 'clean' waveform than a waveform with jitter, since with jitter the transmission is spread over a broader range of frequencies.

Noogle, to a point I say, which is why some prefer WAV decoding over FLAC for example etc however given the choice I certainly prefer the sound of low noise, high stability clocks when done at source, and where I can't do this then mutiple reclocking is the next best thing.. But the end product audio is not equivalent to my ears. I guess this is why I prefer the sound of the NDX natively feeding my Hugo as opposed to most other digi sources I have tried... However feeding an average or poor stability clock source into the NDX still sounds less natural and clear than a high stability clock.

But I can't see how adding jitter can be anything other than destructive as you are creating frequencies that were not in the original signal in a  non harmonic way.

There is something very right about the sound of a digital stream with a highly stable clock... many digital artefacts including high frequency smearing, blurring of complex sounds and lack of silence and space around sounds in the mix tend to disappear 

Simon

I am afraid I'll have to withdraw my statement:

http://www.gramophone.co.uk/cl...n-beyond-dsd-quality

Might nearly sound as good as FM then?

SJB

...just don't forget that FM is streamed digitally to the transmitter 

Hmmm ... not sure, but it will probably melt down the router an that will make FM even more enjoyable ! Best, nbpf

Wow, 10 pages of replies in five days; that says something about the 'bite' this topic has. I accept that there has been some topical wandering that contributes to the bulk, but clearly, this thread has caught the attention of many readers. 

I'm completely sympathetic to the OP and his difficulties. And the number of threads on this forum that deal with streaming difficulties supports his frustration. I know my own experiences with streaming have not been painless; recurring connection problems either from waking or sometimes between songs, connections that work on one device when a second cannot connect, the annoyance of trying to demonstrate the system to friends and having it fail. 

I'm not doubting the many owners who apparently have had little trouble, or perhaps only normal difficulties at the initial set up stage. But too many users have had too many problems related to streaming and connectivity for it to always be the users fault. 

Frustration with streaming and the app are not the only reason that I won't be upgrading to more Naim equipment, but I will be happy to leave this particular annoyance behind. 

After investigating the hoplesly confusing world of streaming music, I set my (our) ears on a ND5XS. It was simply the first piece of equipment where I could navigate on a workable (but not perfect) app and where I completely forgot about the technology and really got dragged into the music. And it satisfies my single requirement: a simple setup.

When listening, I forget about the equipment and music takes centre. That's what I bought a Naim for. I hope that somewhere in the future streaming services will be available natively from the Naim ND5XS, but we'll see. I like the simplicity of the Spotify integration and I'm not waiting for adding another piece of hardware to plug in to be able to listen to all sorts of streaming services. As such, this industry is still in its infancy, the usability for non-technical people is too poor.

I sympathise with the people who have such a long frustrating wait, but if you look at the speed of development and the deluge of streamers, dac's and other equipment out there, it is simply a zoo. Given the fact that Naim is around for such a long time I guess they will pick whatever is workable in some future. Untill then, I'm enjoying my collection of ripped cd's on my NAS. It will take years to listen to all of it, so I have the time to wait

Yep, glad you are having fun with your ND5XS, for private streaming its a great solution. Streaming Services as an industry is interesting as it matures ithrough its second generation. First generation streaming services which started coming into the ascendancy 10 or so years ago were predominately computer based, and for the most part did not have the backing of big music labels, and were for the  enthusiasts. 

Then the streaming services started to become mainstream and were acessable to a wider audience with mobile devices.. You didn't need to be an enthusiast or specialist or enjoy them.. Enter Spotify a few years ago and second generation Streaming services came into the world. I think the evolution in this generation has  been about music rights and will be about CD lossless..

The next generation or third generation will be about I suspect Hidef and live high def lossless streaming services, concerts  and events..

So in a rapidly evolving industry, which appears always the way for anything involving the Internet and information technology, it will be interesting to see how Naim embraces the current second generation streaming services... and if it readies itself for the newer third generation streaming services just around the corner...

interesting times...

Simon

Or naim could go the other route, create and ndac2 or ndac3 best with a preamp also, and let other Companies make the streaming box and apps to go with it. It will be interesting to see what is released over the NeXT  year or 2 from Naim.

Claus

Indeed, this would also be an interesting proposition. I am sure that even long-time Naim users would be open to endorse whatever "refocusing" strategy as far as this was reasonably understandable, would not obviously lead into dead-ends and woud witness some assertiveness.

Talking about assertiveness: is there a bottom line to this long thread ? Can we draw some (possibly preliminary) conclusions ? Has the OP abandoned Naim ? Is AllenB question been answered ? Is the answer yes or no ?

Willl the sun rise again tomorrow?

But to answer the OP's question:

It's only hi-fi guys.

Happy listening.

Dave

For me - as interesting as 67 different types of razor blade at the supermarket,

These tedious little means for obtaining music playback should try to settle down.

If I were repeatedly trying to crawl along this cutting edge of a straight razor - I'd use a PC (sudden thought from the future - Squeezebox Touch) until it all settles down.

'That's my dream. That's my nightmare. Crawling, slithering, along the edge of a straight razor . . . and surviving.'

My cheap little Squeezebox Touch seems to do a pretty good job with regard to choosing a music streaming service; Spotify, Qobuz, or Deezer, and all easily set-up. That'll keep me going until the dust settles.

Dave

PS Now I'd better sort out the BBC Radio internet changes. Aren't streaming services a lot of fun.

Ouch! That doesn't bear thinking about. 

With the MacMini I just click on the app, Qobuz, Tidal, and off I go. Never had any problems at all.

An alternative would be to buy something that cannot connect to ALL THESE momentarily  WONDERFUL THINGS and sit glowering at it.

That has a certain appeal.

I agree with the momentary aspect Adam. I had the various trials with Spotify, Qobuz and Tidal but in the end wondered about the point of it all. I have about 2,500 LPs and about 2000 albums on my hard drive. With so much good music readily available I didn't see the point of spending £20/month on a subscription.