Thinking of abandoning Naim after 35 years

Posted by: Dunstan on 05 February 2015

Virtually all my musical audio pleasure since leaving University has had Naim pre- and power- amplification in it, from a Sondek driving a 42-110 combo in 1985 (then another 42-110 when the first one got stolen) Then an CDX2, XPS2, 202, 250-2, NAPSC, HICAP2, subsequently upgraded to HDX with DAC in place of the CDX2. Now a SuperUniti graces a small second property.

It's all lovely stuff and it is a privilege to be able to afford it and enjoy it. My daughter inherited the 42-110 and still sounds good sitting at the back end of her apple mac and driving my ancient Ram 150 speakers.

By any standard I have been a faithful advocate of Naim hifi for over 30 years, but now I'm just about getting to the end of my tether and I am seriously thinking of heading for a different 'manufakturer'. The sad thing is this frustration has nothing at all to do with hardware, no, it's that irritating little interface called n-stream that acts as a constant and frustrating barrier between my 400 albums and being able to listen to them.

There is plenty of screen 'real estate', even on my iPad mini, so why can't I have an omnipresent area for controls (volume and input), a playlist, the album list and some info on the current album? Why do I have to press un named buttons in the corner for the screen to flip over, or swipe left and right to swap from upnp to the television? Why is my music collection even called upnp, my wife has no idea what this means? Why can't I random play my whole music collection, or just my chosen genre or artist? Why were all these things better on the previous version of n-stream than they are on the new version? There are plenty of fantastic little music player apps out there so why is Naim creating rubbish software from scratch when an alliance that leverages someone else's skills would be simpler and provide a better result?

My wife is no technophobe - she plans London journeys with Citymapper (just about the best app you can imagine), reads the news on Flipboard and trades shares on the HL app. However, without me there she never listens to our own music on the SuperUniti because she can't figure out the n-stream app - she just puts on Radio Paradise from the remote control.

Isn't that just a ridiculous situation? Naim products have an enviable reputation for revealing the music, but the software is doing its best to hide it.

Posted on: 06 February 2015 by Bart

Playlists are the one area where I have to abstain from judging apps -- new, old, third-party. I just don't use 'em.

Posted on: 06 February 2015 by Ingenius

Originally Posted by Ingenius:

I am already decided. The very least Naim could have done is Tidal.. if they can do spotify then Tidal, i believe is dooable, But no they concentrate on the Muso and the Statement hardware... and virtually ignore the many people in between with many thousands of pounds and years of investment in Naim equipment. i mean Spotify is ok for a party SQ wise, and try before you buy... but thats it. I am ready to upgrade but it wont be to a NDX or HDX My Naim streamer goes next week. Replacement ordered from across the border

Och aye the noo

regards

Ingenius

And consider this,

my 2011 apple TV updates its firmware while its plugged into the network to bring new enhanced features. My 2013 Naim sreamer is years behind......Anybody on here that has updated the firmware on a Naim streamer will know what a scary and absolutely long winded process / faff.. to the point that some users would even not attempt due to their knowledge or lack of it. what chance the control point app ??

regards

Ingenius

Posted on: 06 February 2015 by Tom_W

You can't operate the mu-so without using the Naim app. Only partial functionality is available using the remote or the touch interface on the unit. You can't access upnp for example.

Posted on: 06 February 2015 by Hmack

Ingenius originally posted:

"...... I am ready to upgrade but it wont be to a NDX or HDX My Naim streamer goes next week. Replacement ordered from across the border"

Ingenius,

As a matter of interest which model (from across the border) have you chosen?

I am sure you won't be disappointed with the SQ (especially if it's a Klimax DS/1), but I assume that you have tried out the equivalent apps? I don't want to put a downer on your decision, but I wouldn't say that the 'Scottish' apps are significantly better.

Having said that, I am perfectly happy with both sets of apps for my Naim and 'Scottish' streamers. I hope it works out for you. Of course, you will now also have the option of integrated Tidal streaming services, which I am sure will be a definite plus.

Posted on: 06 February 2015 by The Meerkat

Originally Posted by Huge:

I tried Kinksy on my laptop, the windows version doesn't work with the ND5 XS It'll only ever play one track and then stop.

Typical Meerkat! I just couldn't resist trying Kinksy! The app found my ND5, and displayed my albums. But as you say Huge, it only wants to play one track! Deleted from my iPad!

Posted on: 06 February 2015 by The Meerkat

Originally Posted by Fueller:

Originally Posted by Bananahead:

Originally Posted by Huge:

I'll believe that the app is an issue serious enough to abandon streaming and Naim when it becomes commonplace for CD systems to have an easy interface that automatically selects loads and plays the CD that you want, without this costing significantly more than the basic player.

Until then, there is a remote, very similar to the one you use for CD.

Exactly

+1 - I frequently use the ndx front panel or remote i.e. if the ipad is in another room or being used. Still much easier than CD.

I use a mixture of the app and the remote. Mostly, the remote for iRadio.

Posted on: 06 February 2015 by Ingenius

Originally Posted by Hmack:

Ingenius originally posted:

"...... I am ready to upgrade but it wont be to a NDX or HDX My Naim streamer goes next week. Replacement ordered from across the border"

Ingenius,

As a matter of interest which model (from across the border) have you chosen?

Hi Hmack,

I have opted for the Akurate DS as my Klimax LP12 is my reference player. I rate its sound quality a bit better but its implementation software / hardware and control is much slicker. and Yes it has Tidal. I really decided that I am not waiting around for older tech to play catch up. I love Naim equipment.. superb amplification, But I think there are clear pathways that Focal want them to tread.. and the current streaming products ( Muso apart) and the way it has gone about implementing the technology in the past, prior to being bought out by the French parent company,.. I fear may not be high on its priority list on this pathway

regards

Ingenius

Posted on: 06 February 2015 by The Meerkat

Naim are not alone with their software problems. Just look at Apple!

I have an iPad Air, and an iMac. The grief that I, and loads of others get from IOS 8, and Yosemite, is horrendous! Something you would not expect, from a company that has just declared over $65 billion turnover!

They all need to slow down, 'banging out' new products, and get the software right for their current models!

Rant over!

Posted on: 06 February 2015 by dayjay

Originally Posted by The Meerkat:

Naim are not alone with their software problems. Just look at Apple!

They all need to slow down, 'banging out' new products, and get the software right for their current models!

Rant over!

You're lucky, my work Ipad is an Ipad 2 and that became virtually unusable. I prefer the Naim app on my Galaxy Note 10.1, its not got as many features but its much quicker. Speed isn't a problem listening to albums but on the Ipad flicking from song to song or setting up playlists is almost unworkable

Posted on: 06 February 2015 by Huge

Originally Posted by The Meerkat:

They all need to slow down, 'banging out' new products, and get the software right for their current models!

Rant over!

Whilst as a (ex) systems designer (mainly software), I agree with you; but the corporate executives don't. Unfortunately they have good evidence from the marketplace supporting their viewpoint.

Taking time to get something stable in the computer market leaves you appearing to be slow and behind the curve, and most people therefore assume you're using old unreliable technology. In the technology market place that's the kiss of death to a product.

Posted on: 06 February 2015 by GraemeH

My iPad 2 is fully up to date and has worked flawlessly for years. I wouldn't be without it for work & play.

No problems with the naim app either.

Browse, play, stop.

Posted on: 06 February 2015 by dayjay

Originally Posted by GraemeH:

My iPad 2 is fully up to date and has worked flawlessly for years. I wouldn't be without it for work & play.

No problems with the naim app either.

Browse, play, stop.

I wish I could say the same Graeme. I use mine for emails and appointments and occasionally for the Naim app if I am only listening to albums but the response is slow and its easy to double press as a result which means you lose your playlist, and temper. Its supplied by my employer so I can't really complain and I'm happy using android for everything else including controlling the Naim

Posted on: 06 February 2015 by Mike-B

Originally Posted by The Meerkat:

Naim are not alone with their software problems. Just look at Apple!

............ can we mention Linn & their app(s) ????

Reading the Linn Forum, I get the impression they have as many app issues as some of the more dissatisfied Naim users we read about on this forum.

Posted on: 06 February 2015 by Bananahead

Do we actually KNOW that the Naim products are memory limited?

I totally agree that they should be over the net upgradeable.

Posted on: 06 February 2015 by Bananahead

Originally Posted by AllenB:

Originally Posted by Bananahead:

Do we actually KNOW that the Naim products are memory limited?

I totally agree that they should be over the net upgradeable.

For obvious reasons, Naim will not say that in respect of adding streaming services. But they have not said it is not an issue either. But we do know it's the reason why over-the-air upgrades cannot be implemented. And why local caching cannot be done on the hardware to help with the app navigation of music libraries.

That's how tight things are with on-board memory for the firmware.

Now go and put 2 + 2 together.

So they obviously have something to hide about adding streaming capabilities?

But they have said that there isn't enough memory for over the net upgrades?

And they have said that there isn't enough memory for local caching?

Do you make it 5 ?

Posted on: 06 February 2015 by Mr Magoo

At the risk of alienating people (if I do I apologise now) might the real problem be hybridisation and hybrid expectations that come from that? I do wonder if the people who don't have problems with the app have fairly simple systems. Mine is NDX + Supernait 2 and I have no problems. I rejected Linn for Naim when I purchased as I found the app better with Naim as well as an overall better sound and feeling.

Take in to account that SonoS for example was set up with streaming in mind it's not surprising that they have a gang of people tasked with making the software happen where as unlike Naim their hardware is produced by suppliers. Naim is taking time to change direction towards streaming and may well be planning well ahead, I understand a new streaming product is imminent, and accordingly they should be given time for everything to mesh.

Remember, it's the box that you listen to and there are various ways of facilitating that without giving money away to eBay surely?

Posted on: 06 February 2015 by Steve J

I find it hard to understand why people go for the Naim streaming option when for circa £2,500 one can buy a MacMini/8Tb Thunderbolt HD/Hugo and have a system that, to my ears, sounds better than any Naim streamer I've heard. No app problems, despite Meerkat's comments I've had no software issues that affect my listening since setting it up 8 months ago. In the words of the Meerkat "simples".

Posted on: 06 February 2015 by dayjay

Originally Posted by Steve J:

I prefer using a streamer to a computer, even with Naim app. I have a hugo connected to my uq2, and until I upgrade the streamer I prefer that interface. It sounds superb for the cost btw

Posted on: 06 February 2015 by Bananahead

Originally Posted by AllenB:

Originally Posted by Bananahead:

Do you make it 5 ?

What do you make of it?

I'm keeping an open mind.

At the moment it seems tenuous circumstantial evidence.

I won't convict unless I hear an admission or someone that I might trust has done an independent analysis.

A few months after I got my CDX2 there was a pic upgrade. They simply sent me the new chip and I replaced it myself. At least they have a better way of updating firmware now

Posted on: 06 February 2015 by The Meerkat

Originally Posted by Steve J:

Steve...I have to say, it does sound an interesting set up. How do you control it?

Posted on: 06 February 2015 by DavidDever

Originally Posted by Andrew Everard:

Originally Posted by dayjay:

I tried the Kinksy app last night, I suggest everyone else does too because I guarantee that you will love the Naim app afterwards

I think I was hinting at this in my advice on the other thread that it might be worth trying Kinsky as an alternative to nStream.

Kinsky for Naim streamer? Probably not a good match. Kinsky for OpenHome-compatible streamer? Works fine.

Open APIs for controlling (or being controlled by) third-party applications? Must-have - it's 2015. This applies as much to Sonos as it does to the smallest manufacturer on the market.

Flexible embedded streaming platform that can grow as software changes? Also a must have.

Over-the-air updates? Do I even need to ask?

Posted on: 06 February 2015 by tonym

Originally Posted by AllenB:

Originally Posted by The Meerkat:

Originally Posted by Steve J:

Steve...I have to say, it does sound an interesting set up. How do you control it?

Yes, and one I may well look seriously at post Bristol Show (my personal imposed deadline).

Using a similar setup to Steve (music on WD Thunderbolt drive, iMac to DAC (a Chord QBD76 in my case)) controlled either on the computer or via the excellent iTunes Remote, I can only reiterate what Steve's posted. It just works, and the only glitches I've had are when I've chosen to mess about with it. And it sounds better than any CD player or streamer I've heard.

Posted on: 06 February 2015 by DavidDever

Originally Posted by AllenB:

Originally Posted by DavidDever:

Originally Posted by Andrew Everard:

Originally Posted by dayjay:

I tried the Kinksy app last night, I suggest everyone else does too because I guarantee that you will love the Naim app afterwards

I think I was hinting at this in my advice on the other thread that it might be worth trying Kinsky as an alternative to nStream.

Flexible embedded streaming platform that can grow as software changes? Also a must have.

Over-the-air updates? Do I even need to ask?

Well I hope that Naim listen harder to their trade members than they seem to do with their loyal customers.

I have no more "trade" clout than anyone else at this point.

Posted on: 06 February 2015 by Bart

Originally Posted by Bananahead:

Do we actually KNOW that the Naim products are memory limited?

No, but if it's said often enough . . .

Posted on: 06 February 2015 by Bert Schurink

Going back to the original post. I can see why you are a bit disappointed about the usability of the app. However to let that be a determining factor for switching with all it's side effects, looks for me a bit drastic. And as you have been so long with Naim you will miss that signature sound with other options on the market.

The app might might still improve going forward.