Thinking of abandoning Naim after 35 years

Allen, to a point. Sonos uses a front end 'integrator'; that is a master server.. This is the Sonos Connect box. It is this that connects to the music sources and sends audio to the distributed speakers or SPDIF to a DAC.

Naim chose not to adopt this approach, although it could have done with a modified Unitiserve or HDX. Instead it went for a more distributed DLNA type approach. This has the advantage of flexibility with many non Naim DLNA media servers and thereby a lower cost to market for Naim streaming.

The downside is that to develop integrated streaming services and centralised playlists, the complexity is now multiplied by the number of streaming devices in Naim's portfolio..

So where do you go for a sustainable model? Perhaps there are at least two possible approaches:

1) Naim create a new shoe box  front end integrator.. Perhaps like a high quality low noise Sonos Coonect... and perhaps offer upgrades to existing HDX or Unitiserve users.. 

2) Release the software for 1) to allow users to run on their own PC or Mac

This would allow:

1) easier and cheaper development of supporting public network streamed services, 

2) centralised playlists

3) centralised searching across all digital sources. Including DLNA media servers and file systems,

4) provide a Naim front end for greater consistency.

5) no need for added complexity on network streamers.. They would connect to new head end using distinguish methods.

Simon

Great posts gents, very thoughtful and insightful.

I wonder if anyone Naim has read any of this thread? If this was my business I would make it my business to know. Companies spend a fortune on customer feedback and the like, well here it is Naim all for free above!

Is anyone part of the beta test? How is this proceeding? I am most interested on feedback. After one update which resulted in the inability to play gapless music. In my book a real school boy error which told me all I need to know what was going on @ Naim.

Am I being harsh on Naim? Maybe,but when you produce equipment at this level/cost is it unreasonable to,expect a well thought out and laid out app to use/control it? I have and paid for Ipeng, it is a joy to use and regular updates to further enhance it, the Naim app by definition is very antiquated.

Just play 'em - it's so much simpler; and how they were designed to work.

Well John you say that, nobody on this thread has touched on issues regarding bodily deterioration with age, namely eye sight. 

You are sat comfortably in your sofa with a cup of coffee on your sofa table and the CD stops, bugger! You grab your cup, creek creek body straightens up and you move towards your rack strategically placed music system next to your CD collection book cases. In my case the first obstacle is to not stumble over the edge of a very thick rug placed in front of my speakers for better sound. As it has been seen to occur many a times, I normally JUST manage to regain my balance before I potentially collide ungracefully with my 2 Fraim stacks. However you realise  that half the content of coffee has now been spilt on the carpet. You now stand in front of a CD rack and expensive hifi system thinking, where the hell do I put my dripping cup of coffee. You finally decide to put it next to the tuner on the bottom shelf, here realising also your back hurting in the process. 30 foot steps later you are on your old knees with your wet kitchen towel, phew done. Another 30 steps later you have put the dirty towel in your washing and are now finally about to decide what to play next. The light seems terribly dim and you realise this is where your problems really begin, namely where did I put my glasses? After a another couple of minutes you find them next to your iPad upstairs, result! Back in front of the CD rack little droplets of sweat forming on your forehead. Flip, I can't see anything through these glasses being now held up against the previously dimmed light now on full. Who on earth have made my glasses look, as if they were last polished in French pate? Back to the utility room for window polish and towel in the kitchen, polish polish. Back in front of the CD rack, desperately hoping that the CD you have chosen was put back in its right place and the story goes on to the point, where finally back in the sofa, you remember the cup of coffee you left on the bottom frame shelf having made a nice ring on the pristine glass surface.....

Cheap mint CD555 anyone.................?  Enjoy streaming folks Peter

Right. Last weekend I spent a few hours hacking MPD and ncmpcpp. I wanted to understand how difficult it would be to add an arbitrary tag to the core set of supported tags. Just to know. It took me about one hour to add a "MyTag" tag to the server and a few more hours for the client (but only because the client had a number of hard wired parameters and no whatsoever out-of-bound checks.

If Naim believes that the UPnP / DLNA interface is a serious limitation to their streaming approach, they should implement meaningful extensions in a demonstrator. Implementing a UPnP server should not be that difficult.

I am not even sure one needs local caching. I have written a 5 lines script to wget the booklet associated to the currently playing album (revealed by a plain mpc call) from the server and open it on the machine running my MPD client (I was annoyed by the fact that control applications do not support displaying liner notes). It is very fast: I have a version which fetches local data instead but I do not have the impression the data transfer over WLAN is a problem in any way.

Of course, the capability of building a local cache would be great for searching music libraries on a USB drive directly connected to the streamer. This would also provide a limited backup solution in case the communication with the UPnP server breaks down.

But as I mentioned in a previous post, I do not see any advantage in a centralized, NAS-based  approach. For music collections of the order of a few TB, a distributed architecture with multiple MPD servers provides all the advantages of multi-room streaming without cables, switches, NASs and, above all, without data transfer over the LAN. The LAN is then just needed for the clients to communicate with the servers and can be wireless. And music replay is completely immune from bandwidth drops or similar failures.

Exactly, if it was my business too, I would like to know the complaints of my customers and do something about it.... take part in this discussion.

To Bart and HH.

when you choose a certain input, lets say upnp (Unitiserve), in the bottom line you can touch and the skip, adjust volume and such. Why does that function often disapear on my iPad? Is it me or the app function Or what?

Seems that the app locks when switched between streamers, or when more than one pad has been used.

When you first choose a track, the volume and skip controls cannot be seen, until you touch the bottom bar, which then expands to the now playing screen. It will stay there until you minimise it in order to choose something else. That's how it works for me. I have an airport express linked to the switch that the server and streamer use, which makes the system very reliable. If you don't use this arrangement, try it. Mail me separately if you like, it's my forum name at g mail, as this is somewhat off topic.

Last Thursday I was invited by my dealer to listen to a Linn demo, presented by Gilad Tiefenbrun. 

We first had lunch with all kind of people.... Naim and Linn owners.

First Gilad explained all the technical details, how easy it is to update the whole system and so on.... I was really impressed by their approach, future proof I would say. I felt somehow my system came from the stone-ages. 

Well, we listened to a Akubarik system and I was totally not impressed! Despite all the technical advantages it just didn't convince me. Afterwards we had a listen to the Klimax Exakt system... wow this sounded fantastic! No black boxes, almost no cables and a very impressive sound. Had I started from scratch this would probably worth thinkin about. But still, I love the Naim presentation. So for me, it's not just a technical matter, but a SQ matter. I would just wish Naim would listen more to their customers.... they can do more than they currently do.

Very good Peter! But it's a very good point, & in my advanced stage of senile decay, jumping up & down to mess around with CDs does tend to detract from the listening experience. Then there's those 45rpm LPs...

Thanks HH. I also use a AE, but there's still a small mix in networks. I will sort this out and see if it helps. Will come back to it.

At least the 555 has a flat top on which you can put the coffee cup. There's no need to bend down.

Exactly our findings also. Helen would like to jump but thinks it will cost too much when you factor in what we would lose. So she's stuck, but in a happy place. I'm still enamored of the Naim presentation. I could love Linn in isolation but Naim does music better. Pity that's all they can manage but I suppose it is the most important thing. We went streaming for sound quality not convenience. I must go away and write that out a hundred times. In fact, I think I'd better put up posters in the lounge.

...but that's not just a "head-end", is it?

Prior to the existence of the (endpoint-only) Sonos speaker range, every Sonos system was constituted of Zone Player (now Connect) devices, all on equal footing - this remains (even at 44.1 kHz) the key to the system's flexibility, with synchronized zone playback for those that want it.

The head-end on the fixed-storage content side exists as a server layer running on PC or Mac - this would actually be a very good place to start; a Python-based application could be easily written to parse the existing Naim server-generated tags and convert to/from tagged WAV, uncompressed FLAC, AIFF, ALAC, etc. It could also be used to manage storage pools and to create / sync playlists, and, with a paid add-on or two, re-work embedded tags and artwork, and ingest CDs*. Once done, no longer required - and no longer requiring a third-party linear power supply to justify 2nd use as a source component.

It could even be used to update local players, including those with no remote-update capability.

Combine this with better aggregation of fixed-storage and streamed content service offerings at the control point or player, and you catch up to what others in the market are doing / have already done.

All of this has been suggested before, but I would imagine that every manufacturer's perception and priorities for the market are different.

* - or, provide aggregation for music store purchases (or at an even high level, the commercial interface itself)

To Peter's point, I love CD, I really do, but solely relying on it is too restrictive.. There is so much music  that is released outside of an album.. Typically EPs now .. I guess singles have effectively died... And these have until recently only been available as lossy downloads.. A real turn off.. Now you can stream most of them losslessly and it's great. I love exploring EPs.

Why should one be a slave to a specific format when there is so much music to savour and enjoy... and now one can it enjoy it without having to sacrifice audio quality.

Simon

Dave, I agree 'head-end' is a vague undefined term in consumer audio ..but in the IPTV industry which I worked in for several years, the headend is a service aggregation platform that then allows onward streaming to a defined or close user group.. So it feels it fits. I guess a home digital media integrator or hub might be equally apt..

The Auralic Aries is another such example of course.

Simon

Another happy user of AIFF into Mac Mini into Mcintosh Headphone Amp (ducks for cover) it just works and the sound quality is very good. Controlled by ITUNES remote on iPad, and as a backup the Mini is connected via HDMI into TV. Having had a NDS/555DR, I just could not get my head around the amount of money tied up in something that I could get similar sound for thousands less (without all the boxes) hence it was sold on quickly. Best thing I've ever done regarding Hi-Fi decisions.

My streamer investment now runs to a Qute2, and at that price it always surpasses expectations, albeit with less satisfaction due to the naff app!

Simon, isn't this roughly what Mopidy provides ? Best, nbpf

Don't fret Peter. You'll be running around like a spring chicken in a couple of weeks. 

I'll tell Sophie !  Thanks Steve , ATB Peter

+1...the Naim app is efficient and works fine. No software is perfect and never will no matter the developer budget...Apple, Microsoft, Google etc...Streaming is a different animal but I for one would rather invest time in the either Streamer/NAS/DAC, PC/MAC/NAS/DAC...than sort through and constantly refile a gazillion CD's lying all over the place. Pick your poison.

Hi Simon.

I wasn't particularly advocating CD was I?  It's not all ' dark ages' here you know, still got my olive Nat and Airport express playing off my wifes I tunes library. Actually bliss as my CD555 has gone to HQ having developed an intermittent fault, still tick tock though. ATB Peter 

I'm sorry gents unless you use the Naim app you can't post here 

Please guys, is it possible to avoid quoting lengthy posts in their entirety... Hoopla wastes enough screen real estate as it is already.

Thanks,

Jan

Peter fair cop 

Very clever Jan, did Erik teach you that one ?!  A 1 liner for you ATB P