Thinking of abandoning Naim after 35 years

Thank you Allen. 

Naim are quick to release hardware unfortunately the software leaves a lot to be desire. I do wonder what the "public " perception of the app who buy the Muso will be? 

Am am I being unreasonable with Naim? 

Is it ? Having been an early adopter of the n-Vi i gave Naim the benefit of the doubt regarding ultimate performance, over buggy unreliability. A move back to Naim streaming from Linn was a step back in usability. Perhaps the old customer base will be more tolerant, but new to Naim customers expecting a system to 'just work', may be rather disappointed. 

I could even live with lack of usability, however the instability and poor release management put's me off. As I have an IT background, I am still capable to go through a step to step process when issues arise, I don't want to know how helpless you feel when you miss such a background.

And yes to Simon's point from a high class marketed product you expect especially on usability more....

Lol Graeme

I thought I'd load the Kinsky app and see how that looked. It doesn't work everything, but has the 'always there' volume control, which shows the SU setting. The pictures of albums are smaller and generally it doesn't look as good, but the volume control is nice, and just for Allen, it shows the batter level and wifi signal strength.

I didn't mean batter level - though that would be useful in a fish and chip shop no doubt.

In the Kinsky setup option, you can see a copy of the app's manual, setting out clearly exactly how it works........

I'd stay away from fish and chip shops if I were you Mr Halibut.

Yikes! 

'The Batter Level'....is that why 'The Scottish Company' uses it?

We batter anything we do.

G

I understand that Naim are about to launch a new streaming product in the very near future, probably ahead of the forthcoming shows.

Whilst I do not want to breach a confidence by saying exactly what it is, suffice it to say that it is not Unitiserve/Muso level.

It is therefore possible that the issues debated by Allen and others here may become clearer post launch.

Sorry that should have read Unitiqute!

Given that we're now up to five pages, my personal view is that this is not so much a storm in a teacup, but a typhoon in a teacup.

If there wasn't an alternative to the app and the app wasn't going to get improved, then I'd agree with the extreme views.  But while Naim concentrate on SQ rather than consumer convenience, this will always be the case.

Another post, a bit more energy for the vortex!

I think the new app looks better but works less well than the old one. I find it slow and I have problems with it frequently. In fact, if I know what it is that I would like to listen to... I pick up the remote and use the keypad to navigate. It's a bit strange that in 2015 I can't fast forward with the remote control. It has the buttons but they don't actually do anything.

Naim's approach to streaming does seem to represent something of a spray can mentality. To date they have released one box with music ripping-storage-streamer-DAC (HDX), one with ripping-storage (UnityServe), a bunch of streamer-DACs (NDX, NDS, ND5), one streamer-DAC-preamp (NAC172), the Naim DAC a DAC-Headphone amp with matching power amp. Are there any other possible permutations? Then there are the power supplies... What of the new Muso owners who decide they want to buy something a rung or two up the ladder? They're sure to wonder what it's all about. The all-in-ones make a little more sense, but then I wonder if they really need four in the range. Two have CD players built in, one with a swing arm, one with a tray, but the top of the range one doesn't, two have volume knobs, two don't. It looks like they're fumbling their way through this... it's all a bit of a mess is it not?

Hungryhalibut originally posted:

I thought I'd load the Kinsky app and see how that looked. It doesn't work everything, but has the 'always there' volume control, which shows the SU setting. The pictures of albums are smaller and generally it doesn't look as good, but the volume control is nice, and just for Allen, it shows the batter level and wifi signal strength.

Hungryhalibut,

The desktop (Windows) instance also provides you with a matrix view of albums which the IOS version you have doesn't, as does the new alternative application (Kazoo).

I still feel that the Naim and Linn apps are much of a muchness, but unlike most who post here, I am pretty happy with either set of apps on their respective streamers. I don't do anything particularlyy complex with them, but I do construct and use playlists and don't have any real problems unlike some others here.

I also have no real issue with Spotify being a separate app - that's fine by me. Once you work out how to invoke the Spotify app that works just fine for me as well. Like most people I would prefer a lossless streaming service via Naim, but luckily for me I also have that option using my Linn streamer and Tidal.

As Simon and a number of others have indicated, it's possible to gain access to lossless streaming services in other ways, albeit without the convenience of integration into the Naim kit.

I do come from an IT (although not from the networking side) background, so I guess the concept of setting up a home network that works isn't a daunting prospect for me. Count me in on the side of the silent majority (maybe?) who haven't posted 'satisfied' ratings for the apps in the Apple or Android stores.

I do though, understand the angst of those for whom problems are very 'real'. However, from my experience, I am not at all sure that moving from Naim to another high-end alternative is going to resolve any problems for you on the home network streaming front. 

Perhaps, as some people here have suggested - returning to CDs with a simple non-hifi solution like Sonus for occasional streaming convenience might be the way forward. Certainly, this isn't an option that would be attractive to me. I am happy with both my Naim and Linn options. Now, my Marantz bedroom set-up - that's another matter entirely. For those of you who have had issues with local network streaming using Naim, just think yourself lucky you didn't choose to run a Marantz streaming set-up.  

The grass certainly isn't always greener ........

After fives pages of exchanging opinions,  the thread has now got into repeat mode.

Time we or Naim put a lid on the teacup methinks.  

Hopefully we might get some words from Naim tomorrow.  

The thread iself is part of a repeat mode and a continuation of at least another three with added heat but not much more light. I'm not sure what is achieved by repeatedly covering the same points but, to Naim's credit its a free forum and I'm sure we will see it covered again in the not too distant future.  As someone suggested above perhaps its worth seeing what new  product they introduce and see if that drives streaming improvements

+1 on its a free forum dayjay,   & I'm happy that Naim let these kind of threads go without hindrance - unlike some other forums.  

I would expect Naim to react with a response, not something to quell the revolting peasants,  but a considered few words that hopefully map out the app development plan & gives us all something to look forward to.  

But to repeat what I said on my earlier post,  I agree the app is clunky & it's nowhere near the quality level as Naim hardware or the Naim aspired market position.  But other than that it really does work & its 99% trouble free for me.

Very interesting thread, and a nice combination of views with the pluses and minuses and expectations for performance and support. Kind of interesting to compare with the notes in the "what NAS" and "what ripping / editing" threads. Taken together, these three branches illustrate pretty well that the landscape for streaming is complex, that choices and compromises and unexpected consequences abound, that some folks have it all working, some are satisfied but seeking more, some are suffering from apparently inexplicable issues that seem isolated in a home network where a dozen other things "just work". 

I feel that Naim has been "on our side" with updates, that support for equipment in the field is a priority for them, that early design decisions are constraints on options for development, and that they are navigating an even more complex landscape than we think (since adding licensing deals with online services is likely pretty complicated too). 

I'm happy with firmware updates that fix bugs and add new features. My original v1 Qute is performing well, without native Spotify of course, and that's a good thing. My first NAS was from iOmega - a major consumer brand with a huge product line and well established network, support, etc. I bought a second one about six months later as it was inexpensiv, reliable, working well. A month after that (without changing the product name or number), I was orphaned and cut off from firmware updates. Not so nice, but I paid for what was available when I bought it and that was all I ended up with. As this is a fast moving market, my next purchase search explicitly included looking for service / support longevity (I chose Synology, who have 5 year model support). 

I would have have liked over-the-air updates, but can live with the USB wired approach. It can be, and is, improved...and I would like it to get even better and less "risky feeling". But, given recent major catastrophes in automatic updating - I'm looking at you Apple and the massive fail for iPhone users what, six or seven update cycles in to a supposedly routine process? - it doesn't seem quite fair to say that it is now an industry norm to have devices update themselves without the need to tether to a "real" computer, or that Naim provides the only bad user experience here. Many folks bitten by the Apple IDevice upgrade troubles reverted to the USB to computer-running-iTunes path rather than go through that again... and the last update was issued specifi to address a bug in the update process that failed to check for available memory beforehand. 

That said, I don't think all the "missing features" in nStream / naim app are related to onboard memory limitations. Two spring immediately to mind: inability to shuffle all tracks and always-visible volume control. These are application design choices, relying on the interaction between software and firmware. The remote control "play" button plays all tracks listed by the UPNPUPNP server at any level in the hierarchy, whereas the app builds a (memory limited to 250 or 500 tracks) playlist instead and plays from there instead. The volume control works all the time, but is only visible and accessible from the "now playing" screen...not a memory constraint thing at least as far as I can decipher. 

A bigger issue is the quality and robustness of the wifi implementation. I get that not all home network actors are good citizens. But it baffles me completely that adding an Apple Airport Express as a wireless bridge and going wired into the Naim unit solves these issues so incredibly well. My suggestion would be to just implement whatever chipset and firmware Apple use into next gen products and buy out of having to blame the rest of the network (for likely legitimate issues) so frequently. That feels like a major PR / minor technology issue... 

Anyway, I'm pretty happy and also aware that the "hifi first" perspective drives the majority here...and that frustrations with the user experience matter more and more when convenience is billed as a major part of the purchase decision. 

Best at wishes to all. Thanks for letting me add a tiny amount With so many words!!

Regards alan

Which probably sums up my view too Mike

I don't get this either but it definitely works.

If you like what Naim does sonically I wouldn ditch the amps just something different with the source components. 

Sure it works, somehow. You can also set up a streaming solution based on open source software and that will also work. Again, somehow.

The lack of a button or a missing feature in a program can be fairly annoying. But I do not think that annoyance itself is what can make one considering abandoning a brand after 35 years. Disappointment, on the other hand, can. Disappointment is something deeper. It often emerges from considering how things are in contrast to how they could easily be.

It's not only tangible things. I am convinced that if Naim would adopt a transparent approach towards product development and release, it they would commit to open standards, if they would care to make their product lines more "understandable", if they would implement a proper bug report and tracking system, if they would give the impression that they care about users feedback, it would be more easier for customers to accept occasional glitches and temporary deficiencies.

Allen

In all fairness that is uncalled for. Whether you like it or not it is repeat mode, we have returned to this topic a number of time, and Mike has a right to point that out.

I fully understand your concerns and absolutely respect your right to repeat them but until we get guidance one way or another from Naim it is all just speculation. I am in a very similar position to you and I hope you are wrong but we will see in due course.