Thinking of abandoning Naim after 35 years

Strangely, the words pot and kettle come to mind

...

I know; I want a cup of coffee and just relax a while.

I think we should all be able voice our opinions provided they're within the rules and within common decency (btw that includes your own post, but I feel the 'How dare You' comment is a bit strong).

I would not get into a heated argument over this or that in replay, or even an argument over whether such things should be discussed at length.

I would observe that I certainly would not have the patience to a run system that was so frustrating that I could get so hot under the collar so as to want to argue about it.

It would be gone through the door long since.

Replay can be a real enthusiasm. It should never be considered so important that it can bring frustration. If it does, then sell on and get something that works for you.

As regards loyalty to a specific brand such as Naim, I have used Naim for fifteen years, and am completely happy that I have a Naim based replay system today ... If Naim stopped making a system that I liked, then, when the time came to change, there is plenty of high quality choice to purchase in replacement. Naim is a high class audio replay maker, not a religion ....

ATB from George

It is called for. Self appointed moderators have no place here and should set up their own forums. The scope of this goes beyond this particular discussion.

Harry

I am sorry I can't agree. How is

'Time we or Naim put a lid on the teacup methinks.  

Hopefully we might get some words from Naim tomorrow.'  

self appointed moderation. The word methinks is pertinent here. That's an opinion and not moderation in any way shape or form.

This has been a engaging thread with lots of interesting contributions, and reading it has been a welcome distraction from a horrible tooth infection that I've been fighting this past week!

I bought one of the first NDS's imported to the US in early 2012. I bought mainly it for streaming my UPnP library and for occassionally for listening to iRadio, so did not add FM. Despite the less than stellar nStream and naim apps, it has performed both of those functions with 100% reliability and has delivered exemplary sound quality. Others may prefer the sound of some newer digital sources, but to my ears, nothing I've heard since getting the NDS/555PSDR has delivered a better "goldilocks" combination of detail, energy and musicality. As such, it will remain my long-term solution for digital replay.

I have long agreed with Allen and Simon and others that the app itself has obvious usability limitations. Fortunately for me, these don't prevent me from finding the album I want to listen to and hitting play. I would welcome easier navigation, a universal volume control, and so on, but if I am honest, not having those features has not prevented me from enjoying a single night's worth of music. As far as firmware upgrades go, I agree that they are cumbersome. But I can't find the energy to complain hard about something that I use so infrequently, and that has worked well each time I've used it.

Had little interest in lossy streaming beyond surfing for new music. Ran Spotify on my iPad and used a Bluetooth music receiver connected via Toslink to my NDS's digital input. Worked well for that purpose, but never enjoyed listening to an entire album. If I found something I liked, I ordered the CD or record. Tidal's arrival changed that. It replaced Spotify on my iPad, and the improvement in sound quality was significant. Lastly, Bluetooth was replaced by an ethernet-connected Sonos Connect, giving me access to Deezer Elite's much larger library. Removing the Bluetooth link, and relegating the iPad to control purposes only, resulted in another step up in reliability. So far, I have only one short dropout using Sonos and Deezer.

Would it be nice for Naim to natively support all of the music services that Sonos does? Of course. But my used Connect only cost me $300 - not a lot given my overall system cost. So what am I really missing out on by being forced to add a 3rd-party service aggregation box? As far as I can tell, not a lot. Sonos provides Naim-like reliability, and improved functionality. Sound quality is excellent, as the NDS does a very nice job of removing jitter from Sonos's Toslink output. It is perhaps not 100% as good as native UPnP, but it is plenty good enough for my third favorite source of music (behind vinyl and streaming my CD collection via UPnP). If I ever want to improve it more, I can add a $399 Wyred4Sound Remedy reclocker. And if we get too far into 2015 with no signs of lossless streaming service support from Naim, I'll likely do so. Lastly, should Naim ever deliver a more fully-featured app that includes lossless streaming, the Connect will be easy to resell or redeploy.

I understand completely that this is a bigger deal for others than for me. If Allen, Simon and others decide to sell their Naim players and buy something else, then I wish them good luck and all the best. There are lots of great choices, and we should all follow our own hearts. I, on the other hand, worked hard to find a sound I could live with for a long time. Other than adding the Sonos, and replacing a worn out cart, my audio setup has not changed in three years. As of right now, I see no reason why that can't continue to be the case for a very long time to come.

Hook

Hey AllenB,  calm down,  all this is a bit unnecessary. If you think I or others are trying to be self appointed moderators, OK, no problems, but you are just a little bit way off beam.

Meanwhile keep on posting if thats what makes it good for your peace of mind, I just think that to make your case as strongly as possible & just one time is better.

This discussion comes up regularly for the very good reason that it hits at the centre of our concerns that Naim has painted itself into an IT cul-de-sac and will leave a large number of its customers with obsolete hi-end streamers. 

Yes, they have done this kind of thing before (most recently with the Nvi), but this is different because the streamers have been at the heart of Naim's strategy (and the NDS + 555(s) is a lot of money to write off).

The frustration was clear at the end of 2014, but was reduced when forum members were invited to take part in the beta tests, but it's two months since anything happened on that front. It has also been exacerbated by Linn's integration of Tidal and their announcement that they will support the new Meridian hi-res format.

I have been playing with a second hand Sonos Connect over the weekend, in an attempt to get better Qobuz integration. It's ok, but sounds a bit digital to my ears. Therefore, I share the sense of unease expressed over the last six pages.

Pail Stevens has said that they have told Qobuz what is required (I think, to calm a similar discussion to this one). This suggests that Qobuz need to release thit own version of Spotify Connect. By then a lot of people may have lost patience and gone elsewhere.

I wonder how many prospective NDX/NDS customers read this stuff?!

Keith

Why bother?

There are plenty of high quality systems that work, apparently. Just switch out the Naim and get one of these.

When lots of people do the same, Naim will improve its output in this area.

Really simple and no blood to sweat.

Life is far to short to get hot under the collar about disappointing aspects of replay equipment. 

ATB from George

How are you integrating the Sonos Connect Keith? I get very good results digi out with Chord V3 rca-bnc into NDX and DCI bnc-rca into Hugo.

Qobuz lossless streaming virtually indistinuishable from NAS files.

G

Allen

I think everybody understands and appreciates your concerns and you have very lucidly outlined them.

From a personal point of view I, like Hook, use my NDS for listening to my ripped CD collection and iradio. Would I use it for lossless streaming if available, well possibly but not to any great extent. However beyond that I would be very disappointed in spending the not inconsiderable sum on the NDS if it quickly became a lot less than state of the art.

I do not expect the release of the new product to answer all of these questions but it may well throw some light on them. For example if the new product was lossless streaming ready (and given the reasonable views expressed on here and the state of the competition then it might well have to be) then if this enhancement was not 'retrofitable' then I believe it would validate your arguments and cause a lot of people to be very upset.

There is still one thing that makes me doubt you are right however. If the MD of Naim is prepared to come on this forum and say WE WILL in respect of lossless streaming then if he is being less than open and honest he has lost an incredible amount of credibility. Moreover it would go diametrically against everything Naim has ever stood for. I may be naive but I just can't see him wanting to do that. 

As I have already said, we will see.

If vortexbox can do streaming services - deezer, qobus, sportify; Surely US & HDX should be able to do so without resulting to expensive upgrades.

Hook, good comment.. The Sonos SQ is good and gets better with decoupled reclocking... But it is critically noticeably less than native streaming from a Naim ND player. Therefore I think it is legitamate to regjest a service integrator or headend, if we can't have native ND lossless multiple service streaming support, with the SQ commensurate with Naim.

To Keith's point, Qobuz does offer a connect type capability of sorts using Apple Airplay..  but I think that misses the point.. some of the asks have been mixed playlists and combined service/archive  searches.. A closed Connect solution is a step backwards here as wont be able to support these features ... Not the way forward in my opinion at all.. even though streaming service provides like it as their service becomes 'stickier'.. I don't want to have to deal with a plethora of streaming apps.. That would be so last decade.

I do not think that it is. If it hurts to bash your head against a brick wall the easiest way to relief is stop doing it.

Naim has a consistent record of under performing on software except the very simplest such as required for controlling a CD player, and even the CD 555 has had issues with its software. Remember the whole Home Cinema debacle. They stopped making the player and sound processor altogether, and I would not guarantee that anything can be considered certain about the future of the current streamer range. Naim will either make proper working machines that are able to stream from the internet, or give up on the whole project. I am surprised that anyone took the streamers seriously given Naim's history in Home Cinema, and there they were aiming a fixed target and still managed to miss. How much more likely failure given that internet streaming is so obviously a moving target?

I am afraid that in the supersonic world of software development Naim is still on a steel framed classic cycle. It will never catch up, it will never be able to compete, and there is absolutely no evidence that it will become a five star competitor.

I have a gentle wish-list in life including World Peace. I know that there is nothing I can do about this wish-list, and it is important to realise the limitations of our own abilities to affect things that are in reality beyond our control.

When Naim's software department has the R&D budget of Apple, then I would expect that all your woes will be sorted out. It is never going to happen. Even the money behind the take-over by Focal is minuscule in comparison.

Honestly I say this as friendly advice. Move on. Forget Naim. Get something that actually works for you. Get something with the prospect that it will not be made redundant by a lack of foresight at the initial design stage. Don't spend too much even then as things are certainly moving along so fast that I would bet that there is no person today who can predict where streaming will be in five or ten years time.

Sorry to say, but the Naim streamers never appealed to me, because the UI is hopeless for classical music, and Naim are famously hopeless at software, and not least for the quality they yield - they are wildly over priced. Not just two times too much but five times or even more.

Sell out. Accept the mistake and proceed to happier pastures. Really simple actually.

ATB from George

In some ways that would be a step forward Allen because at least their existing and future customers would know where they stood and could nake choices accordingly.  Which ever side of the fence you sit on i think there is widespread agreement that a lack of communication is part of the problem

Sorry Allen but I have to agree with George on this one. I have been using Naim since 1987 and I'm fortunate to now have a 500 system. Being a vinyl junkie I have only recently, in the last 12 months, been attracted to opening up to digital streaming. Being a member of this forum I could see the pitfalls of Naim's streaming options and had no inclination to take that route, despite pressure from my dealer who is also a personal friend. When I bought and set up my MM/Hugo system my dealer was very cynical until he actually heard how much better it sounded than his NDS/555 in a similar 500 system. He sold his NDS, for quite a hit, soon after.

I can understand the frustration of those who have invested in Naim Streamers and feel stuck between a rock and a hard place in that they've spent so much on something that doesn't have the full functionality they are looking for but, on the other hand, would stand to lose a lot of their financial investment if they sell.

Steve

Hi Graeme,

I'm using 5 metres of Maplin's nastiest optical cable into the NDS. I may upgrade if the Sonos stays.

I Haven't done a proper A-B comparison (because they're so boring!), but I will.

It may be that I'm missing out on the full end-to-end awsomeness of the NDS, but I'm not ruling out expectation bias just yet!

If I keep it, it will replace the Apple TV, which will be relegated to Youtube duties.

Keith

One thing I've done out of curiosity is play a track upnp directly then switch half way through to the same track streaming Qobuz lossless.

I'd say the difference is extremely maginal. I doubt anyone blind listening could tell which was which.

G

Agreed, streaming needs to be integrated in to the core of the system. In a moment of candour I doubt Naim would reject this. Connect is an add-on, that would appear to be the only option available to Naim at this time.

I've been streaming commercial services for about 14 months. No single service offers exactly what I want so I'm using 3; Beats, Deezer - came 'free' with a Sonos Connect - and Qobuz. Populating playlists from my own library and more than 1 commercial service is the minimum starting point for me.

Would I do that?

The streamers do what they say they can, but for people who want something that the streamers do not claim, then it is time to move on. 

My criticism [as far as it goes for myself] is that the UI is not great for classical music, where you can have multiple recordings of the same music. This IS an issue for those of us who perhaps want to choose easily between several recordings of the same music that are archived.

iTunes addresses this very nicely if you set the display up as a list and then you can refine easily via a keyboard in the search. For me, that was crucial. I realise that this is a fairly esoteric requirement, though certainly not a unique one.

I was thinking that two years ago the V1 and NAP 100 was shown at the CES. I knew that this little pair of twins might well be suitable for me. I did the home dem, and my mid-March was their proud and delighted custodian. The MAC Mini that feeds them does a stirling job ...

Complaining that the Naim streamers cannot do what they do not promise is as daft as complaining that the V1 does not have an analogue input for a Tuner or Turntable! At that point the potential purchaser should look for an alternative rather than complain that they have bought it and it is not suitable!!!

ATB from George

Hook (from 2hrs ago now), excellent post, well considered, well written, and helps put things into perspective....maybe some of us need to chill...

Bon Dimanche

George, a quick point of order.

The browsing UI for a UPnP server usually isn't Naim's fault, the browsing UI is created by the DLNA server not the control point.

If you use the right server (Asset or Minim for instance), you can configure the fields (tags) that are displayed for selection, and the order in which they are displayed.  If you have the information you want to use in the tags and the server pushes them in the right order you can achieve almost any selection scheme you want.

True the Naim app isn't the last word in elegance (or even close), but browsing isn't Naim's fault (except the UnitiServe!).

Camlan (also from 2 hrs ago), another good post..

only concern is that will the MD of Naim retire before we see lossless introduced..

only time will tell..

Bon Dimanche

You're not going to get the answer on this forum so you may as well sell the NDS before second hand prices fall any further.

Manufacturers normally disclose product and feature roadmaps only under NDA.