Thinking of abandoning Naim after 35 years

Yeah yeah on holiday in jamaica, thought i would check in, good to see you have reached a conclusion, dont worry about a ting! Allen maybe you should visit here.

Paul

I really hope you are enjoying your holiday and I do sympathise with you having to read this lengthy debate whilst soaking up the sun .

However, and despite my not wholly agreeing with his stance, he does have a point. A simple statement to the effect that the conclusions he is drawing are totally without foundation would kill this stone dead, at least for me and I suspect the majority on here.

Dear AllenB,

I have learned that any given promise from anyone can safely be consigned to the rubbish bin. This applies to family and friends, and how much less can one expect a follow through from politicians or commercial ventures including Naim. A promise is a statement based on determination and hope that what was promissed is possible. If it were definitely possible it would already have happened, or else is is a hope. I find most hope is a faint hope at best.

To believe a promise from any commercial venture [including Naim] is at best innocent of real life experience. An experience you are now battling with. 

If a component cannot do today what it is promised, it is not worth a candle for the game. Move on - find something that works, rather than promissed may work one day ... or not. Like the scaler card for the DVD 5 and so on.

I am not saying that you are unreasonable to point out Naim's apparent failures, but rather that you seem rather innocent of the ways of the World. Once Naim has your money, then it remains a faint hope that Naim have the skill to implement what you would like.

I do not take these innocent [un-worldly] risks ...

As for your comment about complaining ... if it walks like a duck, looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then I think that it reasonable to call it a duck ... you look like you are complaining, you sound like you are complaining ... Why be frightened of calling it complaining?

You are right to point to failures, but the question for me is why you believed the hype?

Every piece of evidence concerning software is that Naim will fail to deliver even on fairly simple promises. Caveat emptor.

Perhaps you could sue Naim for marketing un-merchantable equipment? [Trades Description Act].

ATB from George

I like it George......really !!

Naim should get off the fence...

Meanwhile, if anybody has a low cost NDS they want to unload, pls let me know....

Bon Dimanche

Trust has only one chance. when broken it can NEVER be rebuilt. When you understand that, then you will have shed the last vestige of naiveté.

ATB from George

George, glum but true I suspect!  ATB Peter

People who know me personally call me a realist. Those who know me only via the printed word call me a pessimist.

I call a pessimist an unreformed realist ...

ATB from George

Deaer Allen.

Sorry to be so tough on both you and Naim.

I have lived a fairly [to be called] hard life.

I survived, but I suffer promises as so much hot air.

A bird in the hand is worth an infinite number in the bush ...

ATB from George

Whoa gentlemen. You are really depressing me

We are talking about a piece of hifi equipment here and drawing conclusions from presumed information that we don't even know is true. Nobody, at least from Naim, has sold you into the slave trade, stolen all your money or run off with your wife (albeit the latter may not be a cause for pessimism!). Lets have a bit of perspective.

Lighten up and try and look on the bright side.

No - the road to Hell is paved with good intents. Let us just be realistic.

ATB from George

George,

You're being overly cheery. The road to Hell is actually paved?  

Oh goodness, I still have some hopes that must be removed!

ATB from George

Bloody hell, this is enough to drive me to drink, oh, hang about, it already has. Cheers

Originally Posted by Dunstan:

So, Duncan. Have you decided what you are going to do?

Put us all out of our misery please!

AllenB, I very much sympathize with your position. On the other hand, I think that George has a very strong point ant that, to put it bluntly, users of Naim streaming devices are in the first place responsible for what they blame.

Let me try to explain. As a company which is distributing -- among others -- software, Naim is definitely not doing his homework: even small software projects implement solutions that allow customers to submit bug reports, track the status of such reports and issue feature requests.

Naim does not even manages to produce complete changelogs of their firmware updates. From this viewpoint, I understand your disappointment.

On the other hand, it seems to me that there is absolutely no need to rely on Naim's streamers and control apps to build a very rewarding Naim replay system. One does not have to be an expert to see that, if one buys an nDAC, one invests in a technology that might become obsolete quite soon but that does not force one to fiddle around with undocumented apps and Apple devices. And one does not have to be an expert to see that if one buys an NDS, one invests (quite a bit of) money in a device that integrates off-the-shelf technologies that rely on proprietary control applications that run on a very limited range of tablet computers -- the UPnP client section -- with quite advanced DAC technologies. In this sense it seems to me that users who have opted for Naim's streaming solutions are in the first place responsible -- through their consumer behavior -- for the state of things they are blaming. Which, of course, does not imply they should be silent.

Originally Posted by Paul Stephenson:

Yeah yeah on holiday in jamaica, thought i would check in, good to see you have reached a conclusion, dont worry about a ting! Allen maybe you should visit here.

Paul

 

I really hope you are enjoying your holiday and I do sympathise with you having to read this lengthy debate whilst soaking up the sun .

 

However, and despite my not wholly agreeing with his stance, he does have a point. A simple statement to the effect that the conclusions he is drawing are totally without foundation would kill this stone dead, at least for me and I suspect the majority on here.

 

I think Paul has made the Schoolboy error of posting what he thinks is an amusing post because he's on holiday and relaxed. If he's going to post then I agree he should be unambiguous in his response to customers who are nervous about their investment in his systems.

I also agree with a few other posters who note that it would be completely out of character for Naim to leave existing customers in the cack, but that won't stop people worrying based on the evidence of what has actually been delivered to date.

Huge, I am not competent in the UPnP protocol but I would expect that, apart from browsing, the supported search criteria are a concern of the client application (in the limits of the information made available by the server, of course). This is the case in MPD based solutions: under the same server, some clients support searching by Composer, some do not. Some client support multiple search criteria, others don't, etc.

But it will not do will it?

ATB from George

Paul has told us not to worry, so I have decided to take his advice. Surely, his comments imply that the most pessimistic speculation here is wide of the mark and we may be in for a pleasant surprise? Or is he telling it's only hi-fi and so not worth getting worked up about? The former seems more likely (unless he's had too much ganja :-o )?

Keith

Possibly .. possibly not. Probably the latter going on historical evidence and promised from Naim ...

ATB from George

George

What historical evidence? Naim do have a track record to the contrary.

There really comes a time when statements such as that need to be backed with fact however pessimistic you might personally feel.

If I recall correctly, the advertising campaign behind Naim Audio's (relatively recent) range of streamers promoted it as 'The Future of Hi-Fi'.

Many of us have used the brand for several years and I, at least, have always enjoyed great audio performance and first class service and support. Hence, when Naim advertises the product as the future of hi-fi, it perhaps shouldn't be unreasonable to expect that, it would at least be able to accommodate lossless streaming services as and when they become available, particularly when these emerge so soon after product launch.

I share many of the concerns raised in this thread; these concerns were more vividly brought to life yesterday for me when at my local Naim dealer I saw and heard Tidal through a Linn streamer. This is what I want from my NDS!

I would have thought that if the current crop of Naim streamers was able to be adapted to accommodate the lossless services on offer then PS or someone from the company would say so and kill off the concerns we share (notably that we've all invested a lot of money in hardware which will soon be left behind by developments). On the other hand, it seems more likely that the lack of information would imply that the current range cannot be adapted - after all, which business is going to tell the world that its current product range is incapable of offering the same capabilities as its competitors? Aftermarket values suddenly crash and customer loyalty built up over 40 years is instantly lost.

I think it was management guru Tom Peters who said that it is easier for a business to retain ten existing customers than to attract one new one. But I guess that argument becomes irrelevant if product strategy is moving to a different market sector.

Interesting times. 

Whilst my Uniti2 is significantly cheaper than a number of other Naim streaming products that others on this forum own, it still represents a significant investment for me and I'd hate it to be a dead end already.

However I really don't think it will be as it simply has not been what Naim have done over the years to their customers if they can help it. You only need to look at this forum to see they have built a business model based on the consumer trusting that a significant investment in their products will provide value for many years.

It may be that streaming will break that trust bond but it would be a very weird business decision to take based on the fall out that would occur. As others have already noted there are competitive products out there but people invest in Naim for the community as well as the sound quality.

It is a significant differentiator in a high end and limited market in which most consumers will have few experienced friends they can call on to help them make a decision to invest. So fora such as this one are critical to getting customers 'over the line'. I know it decided me in favour of Naim over Linn despite Linn being more attractive to me on paper based on the overall package.

Look at the Home Theatre debacle. The DVD 5 scalar card that never came after two years of promises. Naim has form in not keeping promises.

The company has to work both hard and very fast to prevent a reputation for failed promises to become fulfilled.

Naim can finish itself in a few weeks if this is not explained and fixed. The legacy amps will be serviceable for decades [by such as Darran in Sheffield], but Naim itself can be history in 2015 if this is not addressed, Regardless of Focal's money ... 

This reminds me of the failed management of BL in the late 1970s. 

ATB from George

This might help.

ATB from George

It is the buyer's mistake to buy something which doesn't have the functionality they need. Is anyone really saying they were willfully misled in making their purchase?

Some have chosen to ignore advice, still applicable today, to go with Sonos. It works with or without a NDS. By using it for streaming duties only you can separate the streamer and the dac. This enables you to adjust the component parts as and when you choose.

You can get one second-hand for about £100.