Naim NAC-N 272 Streaming Preamplifier

@nbpf - It was suggested to me that connecting NAS, server etc via a decent network switch does reduce data traffic on that part of the system as the switch will manage that traffic, reducing 'outside' access until strictly necessary - a simplistic description but I know what I mean lol.

Daunt, this is also how I would setup a Naim streaming solution and, in fact, whatever streaming solution. It is, as far as I understand, the right way to setup a LAN for supporting streaming.

I am absolutely confident that it is possible to setup a LAN that perfectly copes with the intrinsic requirements of current streaming architectures. In my reply to David and likesmusic I just wanted to point out that MPD based solutions are, from the point of the user's experience (inclusive that of user's friends), perfectly equivalent to streaming solutions and yet, from the viewpoint of LAN infrastructure, much less demanding.

This is probably irrelevant for those of us who are living in a modern flat with Ethernet plugs at every wall. But for those who live in old houses and do not want or cannot afford (be that for financial, aesthetical or other reasons) to lay down a modern LAN infrastructure, an MPD based solution can be a very valuable alternative to streaming: it runs perfectly stable even with a poor wireless LAN and, from the viewpoint of sound quality, it certainly can be as good (or even better) than a streaming solution.

For me the requirement of a wired connection between streamer and router (over a network switch, as you point out) was in the beginning the main reason why I looked for an alternative solution. Only later I realized that, had I adopted a streaming solution, I would have had to live with the limitations of a deficient software design. As I argued, MPD is not better from this point of view. But it is at least well documented and I know that, if I wish to do so, I can add customizable tags to MPD. In contrast, I'm afraid I would not be able to do so for Naim software.

I comp,steely understand tha and a quick glance at the MPD site has been interesting, I wonder why it isn't more widespread. But then I never really understood how VHS became the predominant format for video recorders and, later, sadly, the starting point for the development of CD and adoption of 44.1kHz sampling which, as I suggested earlier Nyquist most assuredly did NOT state was optimum for good quality audio reproduction.

transporting data around older houses is, as you state a faff at best and sometimes almost impossible without wireless or mains carrier solutions. With very torturous and devious means I was able to get a single length of cable upstairs and around downstairs in my house. I opted for a 'star' approach downstairs as I am able to crawl around under the floor (and relive the 'Great Escape at the same time!). Upstairs is less important but at some point I think I should add a faster cable or perhaps fibre link there to future proof it. Elsewhere, as you infer, is a mare and I have had to resort to through the loft and outside to get a decently cables system ( should I change it to 6e?!

The natural result of this was early adoption of network switches for all the subsystems and I dedicate one route entirely to audio (Naim specifically) via a single cable from my router to a switch with audio NAS and all the black boxes only on that and a completely separate run (to a different room to be fair) for video and Sonos similarly connected to a dedicated switch with one cable back to the router and so on. My theory here being the only time Naim nears to 'talk' to the router is for new connections and Internet radio. I have a separate NAS for all other computing rubbish.

i read elsewhere about the supposed advantages of mains powered switches with regard to earthing and how that can affect sound quality and even debate about metal boxed switched separately earthed (particularly with regards to Giso LAN isolators). I've Beeb around HuFi long enough to not discount these things out of hand, so time to listen to music not compromised, a little experimenting is likely. I di smugly like it when received theory proves to be wanting!

as a tailpiece I do find it interesting, reassuring in a way, that at least a few studios are taking LAN isolators seriously and installing them. Not because they improve (or not) audio quality but because these studios are accepting that simply plugging stuff together to make it work isn't necessarily the total solution to highest quality music recording. As I say, I work in the broadcast industry where throwing it together being good enough is generally the way!

Daunt, just for fairness and completeness: Naim does support an MPD-like approach with it's uServe. I was a bit surprised by David's remarks because, as a matter of facts

a) MPD server / MPD client and

b) uServe / n-Serve

are, from the architectural point of view, perfectly comparable and quite different to streaming solutions. If uServe could be connected wirelessly (which might be possible with a USB dongle but I am not sure about), both a) and b) would be perfectly viable solutions for users who do not want to rely on a wired LAN.

If one is comfortable with a proprietary solution and accepts to buy a ripping station and a UPnP server in the package, uServe and n-Serve are, to my understanding, a valuable alternative to streaming solutions. If, on the other hand, one is after a dedicated open source solution and feels comfortable with setting up a dedicated server,  MPD server is a fine approach. Both lack support for customizable tags in much the same way as streaming solutions do.

It is from this perspective that I was quite puzzled at the announcement of the 272. A modular uServe, possibly based on an open OS, would have been a more interesting novelty and certainly a step towards a more balanced and "future-proof" range of products.

I think you're looking at this from the wrong perspective then if that's your conclusion on the 272.

Naim have pre-amps, they have streamers, why not put them together for the convenience of the user and allow the use of a separate power amp? If one was (perhaps/probably) willing to compromise a little on sound quality for the sake of convenience, they could remove a few boxes from their Naim tower whilst adding XPS2 powered streaming functionality.

For example, someone with a ndac/XPS2 with a 202 (282)/200 (250) system could replace the pre and remove an nDac and potentially hicap (perhaps) from the equation....

Well ... I am not so young anymore and all that crowling under the floor and laying down wires sounds a bit like a nightmare to me. I have managed to get rid of all my ethernet cables and switches about 10 years ago. I would not start rewiring again even if Naim would drop NDSs in my back courtyard by the dozen. Keep it simple and straightforward! MPD running in a Fit-PC box and wirelessly connected clients (on iPads, iPhones, Android, Linux, Windows, OSX, etc.) or uServe and n-Serve are perfectly enough. What matters is enjoying the music and enjoying the way you can organize it and care for it. And this is why software matters.

I am not sure there is something like "the" wrong perspective. But if what you want to say is that, from your perspective, I am looking at things from "a" wrong perspective, I am perfectly fine. Best, nbpf

Don't know about your setup, but USB-based Wi-Fi is noisier than wired (USB-attached) Ethernet on a Raspberry Pi, and subject to all of the usual caveats just as with anything UPnP / DLNA-based; MPD is not a silver bullet that magically fixes the problem on low-powered devices.

If, on the other hand, you are saying that you prefer playback from directly-attached storage, that does make sense (even if it casts aspersions over the hardware design of the device).

I've worked with the Chinese OEM responsible for manufacturer of the AMD-based boards in the Fit PC in a past life, and they are generally pretty good, if not substantially more expensive.

David, that is exactly what I am saying: A canonical MPD-based solution consists of just a MPD server running on a small computer. This is directly attached to storage, on the one hand, and to a DAC-V1 (or, via USB to SPDIF converter, a nDAC), on the other hand. No need for whatever NAS or data transfer over LAN. The MPD clients run on whatever mobile device of your choice and send only commands to the server. For this architecture -- which one could also realize with uServe and n-Serve instead of MPD server and MPD client -- no wired connections are needed. After pressing "play" on the iPad (or whatever device of your choice) you can switch it off and the server will keep on playing. Friends can add or delete items from the current playlist with their own devices. You can resume control from yet another device. No problems. This is the architecture I have been using for about two years. If Naim would have supported an open OS on uServe, I would have been happy to implement a full Naim solution instead of resorting to the Fit-PC. It is not a question of costs but of lack of support and transparency. And pushing customers towards streaming solutions without providing alternative paths and/or adequate software support is a very myopic strategy of Naim, I am afraid.

Hmm, I kind of take the point about MPD, but I can't help thinking it's a rather specific set of needs.

I walk into my lounge from work, pick up a remote or an iPad and listen to music on my Nac 172xs. It just works every time. I can use more than one phone/tablet, have my guests pick the music, adjust volume etc with ease. 

I've never crawled over the house doing wiring - and it's a decent-sized house and the broadband comes in on a different floor from the hi fi. None of the wires are more than three feet long and none of them go through a wall or similar. I don't see what advantage I'd get from another set up. Whatever I did, I'd need data storage, some kind of music-player and a controlling app. In each case the storage and player are connected by wires. As long as the data gets reliably from A to B, I'm fine with it.

I can't help but feel that if Naim moved away from UPNP there would just be other problems. People (like me) would be asking why I need another set of wires, and why I can stream an HD movie from my NAS to my TV, but I can't stream a small music file to my hi fi. The market has spoken, and what it's saying is it's fine with UPNP - the quality of a Synology or QNAP NAS is excellent and at very moderate cost, and that's been driven by its ubiquity as a solution. The reason Naim appears to be soft-pedaling on UServe is that the alternatives are now perfectly good for a fraction of the cost, and offer a lot more flexibility.

I certainly don't think you're 'wrong', I just think Naim is understandably catering for the majority of needs, including my own.

Solid Air, which "rather specific set of needs" do you mean?

Solid Air,

I agree with you (+1) as happy 172XS owner.

The only issue I have is that on the Naim app, I do not always get the same information as shown on JRiver on my Windows PC.

On my PC I rip, tag, and play music using JRiver MC, including adding to the MC music library, and I store that music on my Synology NAS. But in a limited number of cases, the changes are not shown on the Naim app.  Three examples of changes made in JRiver, not reflected on the Naim app (again, only in a very limited number of cases):

• After I have retagged an album title
• After I have added another coverart picture as Folder.jpg
• After I have removed an album

 Whatevery I try (delete the uPnP cache on the app, delete the coverart cache on the app, re-index the entire library in JRiver, re-name the FLAC file and then re-index), the wanted changes do not materialise.

I have understood that this is because the Naim app does not take the info from theJRiver librabry, but from the Synology library, over which I have no control. The only thing I can do is to re-index my NAS library, using the Synology DSM software. But even that does not solve the problem.

So that is my issue with the way Naim has selected the architecture. Would MPD help in this regard?

Any other advise that the experts on this forum may give?

In my case they are not. I have my data on the internal SSD drive of the machine running MPD. It would probably be better to use an external SSD drive but this still would not be comparable to a solution in which data have to be transfered over LAN. 

If you have a reliable wired LAN and you are happy with your solution, you do not need to care. No one here has been suggesting you should move away from streaming. And Naim will most certainly not try to do so, you can be quite confident about that.

But for those who cannot or do not want (again, for whatever reason) implement a wired solution, it is useful to know that there are viable alternatives, I suppose. For me, at least, it was useful to recognize that I do not need a streaming solution to fulfill my (actually not very specific) needs.

I guess you have to tell your UPnP server -- the one running on your NAS -- to update its database.

I do not know if / how you can do that through the Naim app (in MPD clients there is a button called "update database") but you can certainly do that via the control application of your UPnP server.

No. You just need to know how to tell your UPnP server to update its database. If you tell us which UPnP server your 172 gets the data from, we can probably find it out.

Bert - re JRiver and tag changes not materialisng:  It is the case that JRiver gives you the option of storing tags in it's own database only, or both in it's database and in the media files themselves. If somehow you have told it to only store tags in it's own database, then it's unlikely that the naim stuff will see these changes. You can check by (in JRiver):

Tools > Options > Manage Library Fields > (Select the field of interest) > Check whether you have 

"Save in file tags (where possible)" checked.

hth.

The Update Database functionality for MPD is blocking

David, could you please elaborate ? What does this functionality block ? Thanks, nbpf