DSD on ND5 XS, NDX, NDS and Superuniti

Do you know any consumer devices using SDIF for DSD transport?

'Even' dCS is only outputting 44.1/16 PCM over its SDIF and dCS is the only brand I know of, that is using an SDIF-interface.

So native DSD64 file download from say Acoustic Sounds can be streamed over the network, i.e. UnitiServe/NAS or PC/Mac/NAS to NDX wireless and wired???

Just took a look at the link Aleg provided and followed through to look at the prices of downloads of albums in DSD versus what they cost as 96/24 FLAC.  I just took the first two albums that appeared on the list:

Le Quattro Stagioni, Vivaldi, Orchestra Da Camera...

Vendor - nativeDSDMusic DSD64 - €25.00 (£18.60)

Vendor - Qobuz. 96/24 FLAC - £11.99

Exandium Eum

Vendor - 2Lmusicstore. DSD64 - £18

Vendor - Qobuz. 96/24 FLAC - £15.99 

DSD64 will have to be pretty good to justify the premium...

DSD just seems another fad. It sounds different (as does SACD). Good to see Naim adding it to suit consumer demand though. 

Who said DSD was better??

DSD files is just another means, alongside most highres PCM, to increase sale revenues by applying over the top prices for no gain.

Looking at your first example. If a modern recording you're quality wise better of with the PCM 96/24 than the DSD64.

The origins of DSD lay in the obsession of locking down the playback medium so that it cannot possibly be copied. That was the driving force. Good sound quality? Yes by all means, but in the big scheme of things, a nice to have add on.

Hi Harry,

It may be more accurate to say that the origins of DSD 'coincided' with "locking down the playback medium so that it cannot possibly be copied".  I suspect there were 2 separate strands of concurrent develop.

The copy protection side was the SACD disk itself, still impenetrable without pro gear or a hacked PS3.  Whilst DSD was more an outcome of Sony trying to move the audio quality goal posts, and completely rethinking digital recording/replay outside of the red book paradigm.  The latter quite worthy, the former merely annoying ;-)

DSF and DFF files can actually be copied easily, just like any other file type, which probably means the download world of today will be the final nail in SACD's coffin.

I think Naim's take on DoP is a useful feature addition, as is it gives its streaming customers the option to try for themselves by simply downloading a few DSD files to their NAS.  An interesting debate may yet ensue as to whether this kind of transcoding retains the signature sound characteristics of DSD, or not......

Yeah. I was wondering about that too. Although as ever, it will be in the ear of the beholder.

Whats about 172 xs?

Karlos, there is no transcoding or resampling with DoP - it is simply a way of encapsulating the DSD bit stream in a suitable PCM sample container. The information is DSD - you can not play DoP into a normal PCM DAC - it has to support DSD and be able to extract the DSD data from the DoP stream - otherwise you would just hear noise.

So it appears Naim will be converting their internal DACs to support DSD within the DSP controller - so in the end it will come down to preference on DAC design which will include the algorithm Naim use to create the I2S stream from the DSD - just like the algorithm Naim uses to create the I2S stream from PCM sample stream.

Simon

Ah, so that's how they do it!

Thanks Simon.

I follow your explanation Simon - understood.  However the blurb does imply that the SHARC processor will convert DSD to PCM before it hits the 'DAC proper'.  But maybe that's just another way of saying the DAC is now DSD compatible, as the processor and DAC are too entwined ?

Correct.. Digital to analogue conversion actually involves severeal sequential processes. The first process is called reconstruction filtering of the digital data. This may include oversampling etc. most DAC chips contain their own DSP to do this. Naim have decided in the their ND players and NDAC at least to disable the DAC chip DSP and do this processing seperately because Naim believe they can get a better result. Now this processing is required to reconstruct filter DSD data as well as PCM sample data. This is what we see attributed to the SHRC processor.

The bandwidth between the DSP and the DAC chip is a lot higher than the source bandwidth, as this internal data contains additional data to help reconstruction.

Simon

I think I'm slowly getting my head around it, Simon.

There's more going on in these 'ere black boxes than meets the eye..... ;-)

I couldn't disagree more.  I have built up a small collection of  DSD downloads now and they sound considerably better  than 24/96 or 192.  Incidentally for those looking to experiment with DSD64 or 128 or even DXD, the Norwegian label 2l have a generous selection of free  downloads in the various formats on their website.

Norton, what DSD DAC do you use and feed it with?

I was refering to the 'technical characteristics' of high res PCM.

You are talking about your prefered sound.

High res PCM has higher bandwidth and lower noise affects than DSD.

You might prefer the sound of DSD DACs, but IMhO it is just like with vinyl.

Vinyl is very much inferior in technical aspects to digital PCM, but many prefer the sound to digital PCM.

I believe it is the same with DSD64 vs high res PCM.

If the conversion from DSD to PCM is done in the player, and we know that naim players are sensitive to processor overhead (as when they convert FLAC to WAV), wouldn't it be better to do the DSD to PCM conversion at the server end, or just offline?

I don't think you are comparing like with like. the DSD is not converted to equivalent PCM sample data by the player to then be reconstructed as PCM data. The DSD data is being shaped and filtered and then packaged so it can be loaded into the multibit DAC via the i2s interface by the DSP.

I suspect converting the DSD to PCM prior to the reconstruction DSP, unless of very high bandwidth... Like CD quality encoded as 176.4/24/DoP you will be losing more info. 

Additionally all DSD to PCM conversion is potentially lossy and not bit perfect.

Sample reconstruction is not bit perfect as it can vary from implementation to implementation.

You surely want to minimise the number of non bit perfect processes on replay if you can help. Feeding DSD directly to the Naim DAC will remove one of these potentially lossy steps.

Simon

I must confess I'm only interested in how something sounds, not its technical characteristics.  However, I suspect your technical critique of DSD SQ is as open to opinion as my listening.  My experience of actually listening to DSD files on a regular basis completely contradicts your advice to another forum member- it is precisely on modem recordings  where DSD shines through, especially where recorded in DSD.  Moreover, it is not a vague sound preference, but rather based on very specific qualities, including an airiness and delicacy of sound, and most of all a sense of individual instruments located in a space that I find lacking in RBCD and even 24/192.

I started playing DSD downloads with an Oppo 105 disc player and now use a Hugo fed by a Bryston digital player.  Some criticise the Hugo for DSD as it actually converts DSD to (very) hi res PCM, but to me it sounds fantastic with DSD files , although I must admit that the Hugo also really shines on RBCD.

Here is just an easy Bump on my account. Would anybody know by now when the update will be made available?

I just can't wait for listening to Rachel and Julia via Naim's own DSD conversion to PCM.

Chag - 

Today, we have been able to experiment with our NAC-N 272 and it plays a DFF file without DoP encapsulation directly from the NAS using Minimserver. Sounds great, but I have not yet performed a comparison with eg 192/24. The Vivaldi file you see above is also provided for free in 192/24, so It's easy to compare.

It will still not prove if DSD sounds 'better' than PCM on the NAC-N 272, because you are also listening at the DSD --> 192/24 conversion done by the record company, which can be done in multiple ways, with different means of digital filtering/dithering/noise shaping, either in hardware or software.

It's fun though!

What was your general experience with the 272 Garmt. Did you like it or too early to judge ?

iver

I really need more time... Especially in comparison with NDX/SN2 (we use the NAP200 with the N272). What I did hear was a very open and organic sounding midrange. Surprisingly free of grain. Overall, it just sounded 'right' to these ears and had a very even presentation. That's all I can say for now without any A/B session.