Naim app discovery and BT Hub 5 problems

Put in a Linksys ea6700 or above for your LAN, using the BT Hub as a Gateway. I have put in many of these with Naim systems and they work flawlessly.

Thanks for that suggestion. Can you tell me how I would set that configuration up? I assume the new Router manages the Wireless?

I have always just plugged a Router in let it sort itself out!

Bruce

Disable Wifi on your Hub, plug it in to the WAN input on the Linksys, it should grab your ISP settings from the Hub.

Plug any wired devices into the Linksys, configure Wifi settings, SSID and passwords for 2.4ghz and 5.0ghz bands. I would avoid using the provided disc for setup and I tend to ignore the quick setup through the Webconfig page.

The webcofig page will likely have the IP address 192.168.1.1 or 192.168.0.1. Enter this into your web browser address bar. Password will be admin.

Blimey, I think I can actually follow that! 

Maybe not so simple when I actually do it. Might try to see if my old Netgear would do the same thing wired this way first; it is pretty new and high spec.

Just to clarify; what socket/cable connects the BT Hub to the second Router?

Thanks for for your help.

Bruce

Hi Bruce, how is your network wired ?? Ideally it needs to be ethernet, wireless sooner or later will let you down - the NDS quality deserves only ethernet.  

The BT & other ISP "hubs" are not good at handling data & connections can/will/do get compromised,  problem is very few are real network switches - switches are designed specifically to handle network data correctly.

Do you have a switch connected to the hub & then all the network radiating from the switch - if not I suggest that's the first thing to do.

Next I would check to make sure all the devices are set to DHCP (its OK to have static IP addresses,  but first rule in fixing problems is get back to basics - KISS - & DHCP)

Then turn everything off like zero power including the BT hub & leave it for 2 minutes;  then turn on first the BT hub, then NAS, then NDS, & finally the switch.

Mike. The network is wired, ie the NAS and the NDS are wired into the hub. There is no switch between the hub and these devices. I do have one I could add actually as a trial.

I think the whole set up uses DHCP, well it will be if that is the default setting. I will not have altered this.

Bruce

Bruce  ..  all wired is the only way - sounds like you do need a switch.

I had mine set up all ethernet but centred on a BT hub in my first week of NDX, it had trouble finding the NAS, it hooked up eventually but was never instant (as it is now).  Then the first Saturday night with five albums lined up, after the 3rd it overheated & lost wireless then stopped  & it was so hot it had distorted the case.  It worked OK after an overnight cool down, but next day (Sunday) & 30 mins after PC World opening time I had a real switch installed & it hasn't missed a beat since. 

Strange that Bonjour is mentioned regarding the NDS. I have a NDX but Bonjour never appears on Net Analyser against the NDX But does appear against my Qnap/Asset. The system works perfectly ok using the Naim App.

philip

Philip, bonjour is only used for the Spotify connection... The media server functionality on the Naim app uses UPnP. 

if Spotify Connect consistently works but the network analyzer app consistently shows no bonjour,on the NDX  then I would query the ability the iPad app / analyzer app.

Mike in your diagram to avoid confusion, may I suggest you label your 'wifi hub' as 'wifi enabled router'. Hubs in a diagram like this usually refer to a quite seperate device, sometimes useful for debugging.

Simon

Simon,  what these things get called is all over the place on the webosphere & in the public understanding.

 I called it a "hub" because BT call them "Home Hubs", Virgin call them "Superhubs".  

Then look up the description of "router" on www & it says they direct packets to other networks & is connected to at least two networks. 

For schematic purposes on my drawing I think it serves its purpose.  

Ok perhaps put router in brackets after your wifi 'hub'.. They key thing that helps people's understanding in my walk of life, both consumer and other, is that despite what the marketing handle is, a router connects one network to another, ie your home network to the Internet.

A hub as opposed to a HomeHub or SuperHub or WhateverHub (TM) is something quite seperate and perpetuates confusion and misunderstanding... in my expierience.

edit the consumer definition of hub on the inteweb..  http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethernet_hub

Just to clarify

The NetAnalyser app actually does not show the 'U' symbol on the NDS much of the time either. I'm assuming that means failing UPNP discovery. See the sticky thread in Featured topics and the image there.

Bruce

BTW Philip, the BT HomeHub 4(b) is a quite well specified device made by Arcadyan.. They specialise in consumer CPE xDSL routers amongst other things. the specifications are quite advanced, and so I'd be suprised if that device was the cause of the trouble unless something on your home network is giving it false or errored instructions.

Bruce yes.. The failing discovery could be a timing issue.. Does it appear occasionally or not all... Do you see U on any other devices on your network like router, NAS? If it occasionally does not appear I wouldn't worry about it.

Try and run the analyzer on a wired network, do you see the uPnP  'U' more consistently then?

Simon

J Saville - the HomeHub (4b) I believe uses IGMP and so if something is not using IGMP correctly or in a way that is not compatible with the router on the LAN it might indeed be filtering as per design.

Can you disable IGMP snooping on the HomeHub in its advanced settings?

If not you might need to use a basic  switch (like a little Netgear) in front of the HomeHub which blissfully ignores the contents of IGMP and multicast and so if there are errors in the apps on your home network they will go unnoticed by the switch - and the switch simply broadcasts all the multicast frames out whether valid or in error.

Simon

I am not at home but as I recall it is just the NDS that seems to have lost the 'U' symbol. The NAS x 2 on the network and also the Qute when switched on work fine.

I'm going to try a simple solution adding a switch at the weekend as I have a spare and then go from there

Just to finish off this thread for others who may have the same problem. Adding a £20 Netgear switch downstream of the Hub has solved the discovery issues completely. Thanks Mike-B and others.

Bruce

Pleased it worked for you Bruce.   It is the basic starting point & I find it frustrating that Naim don't publish this & a few more simple recommended schematics - like Linn & Cyrus (e.g.)    

You may find the BT HomeHub and other advanced switch devices are quite specific in their multicast implementation. Therefore if the protocol implementation is not quite right soemwehere or not compatible with the BT HH it may be compliantly restricting multicast forwarding.

Using a cheap consumer switch, these will blindly broadcast anything using a multicast IP address and so any errors or compatibility issues are ignored.. But if you use your network later with other apps using multicast you may run into issues.. as wifi segments or other lower bandwidth segments may get saturated.

Simon

Simon

Thanks, but can you do me a version in English!

Bruce

Bruce, essentially a cheap small switch can be used to paper over  cracks and faults.. and get your apps usimg multicast to work.. But there may be a time in the future that these problems prevent other things from working or cause network bamdwidth issues.

Some of the 'discovery' techniques use multicast data.

Multicast data allows data to be sent from a single source to a group of destinations at the same time. The destinations need to have joined a particular multicast group usually managed by the router or HomeHub. 

A cheap switch (or advanced switch configured to do so) hasnt the 'brains' to snoop/inspect and understand this data and so simply sends sends the multicast data, ie the data sent to the special multicast IP addresses for specific groups,  to all devices on the network, irrespective of what has joined what groups.

Therefore some 'discovery' Issues can be down to software, and the network is simply doing what it is told. Putting in a workaround now may cause a barrier later.. There is no problem with this, simply bear in mind if things don't work as intended in the future.. That's all.

Simon

PS I believe Bonjour is only used by the Spotify Connect app to connect to your NDS. home Streaming uses the alternate UPnP protocol You should see a 'U' on your NDS with your Network analyzer. You may also find discovery is improved with a later  Naim app.

But Simon, if I understand correctly the problem is in the BT (or any other ISP type router hub)

….......specific in their multicast implementation. Therefore if the protocol implementation is not quite right somewhere or not compatible with the BT HH it may be compliantly restricting multicast forwarding.

Is this saying the BT & other such hubs have limitations wrt operating simple home systems??

So surely if your “cheap switch” (a bit disingenuous if I might say so, maybe commercial unmanaged switch perhaps ??) hasn't the 'brains' to understand ….... & sends the multicast data ...... to all devices on the network, then isn't that doing just what is needed on a small simple home audio/AV/office system. Its avoids all the complications of professional LAN protocols & simply works – UpnP – for Mr/Mrs Joe Average.

Now I appreciate what Marianne Faithfull was singing about. 

SJB

Not really - there are several way of implementing Multicast group management - including some rather old legacy techniques and this down to the software, router and switches.. it may be the software in the devices using multicast are expecting a different variant than supported by the router - or the switch doesn't understand the protocol variant used between the device and router - or hub as you put it.

The way around this interoperability issue is to use a switch that doesn't understand or deliberately ignores multicast protocols so the data is blindly broadcast.

BTW cheap in my book is not a derogatory term. Cheap tends to mean limited or basic functionality - and that is what I was referring to and is ideal for this work around.

Sticking plasters can work short term and cause problems later on. One example hardwiring address instead of DHCP is another sticking plaster that was quite popular on this forum a little while back. Yes it gets around one issue - but it papers over a timing or reliability issue in your network that you might only then later see when using apps using discovery protocols. etc.

Dont get me wrong, I am all for workarounds - but just bear in mind it may well be prevent something else working in the future that Mr / Mrs Joe Average will potentially get exceedingly frustrated and annoyed about if they had assumed the workaround was a perfect solution going forward.

Certain IPTV services and certain new IPV4 Gaming services are all new or forthcoming services aimed at the consumer  that rely heavily on Multicast....

Joe Average shouldn't worry or care..and I think if you look at Sonos they have used more advanced LAN protocol technology and developed their software  to stop loops and packet storms.. Its transparent I suggest for >99% users - and where there are issues their support seems quite targeted. To me that is a good example.

Perhaps using Xcast or similar (Multicast over unicast)  would be a better more transparent method to use for home audio apps on home networks...where you don't need to rely on Network layer multicast processing or switch work arounds - its all done in the application.

Simon