Sound Quality (SQ) Qobuz vs uPnP

I am not sure your experiment allows to draw any conclusion. If you want to compare different streaming solutions you should do so with the same data, it seems to me.

Hi Peter -- different masterings or even pressings can sound quite different.  You must use the exact same bitstream (the same cd) to do such a comparison.  Otherwise you've got too many variables to solve for.

That's step 1 anyways.

Ok, thanks nbpf and Bart. Getting the same track from qobuz to play through my uPnP is imo not possible. What I can do is buy the album from qobuz and play that thru uPnP. And I can also try to put my own 44.1 version on the iPhone(first I have to figure out how) to compare the front input with the uPnP.

The last option gives you uncomparable results as the iPhone will have a negative impact.

Do  you actually know the mastering of your CD is equal to the mastering of the Qobuz tracks?

Otherwise again uncomparable results.

What exactly are you trying to "compare?"  The data, or the means of delivering the data?

If the two files are exactly the same, at that level I have to subscribe to the "bits are bits" theory and say there is no difference, just as there is no difference if you bought the same cd from both Amazon and Virgin Records and wanted to do a study entitled, "Which sounds better - Amazon or Virgin Records?"

If you're trying to compare the delivery means, and the data is exactly the same, what you're really comparing is a number of hardware differences in the two delivery chains.  I thought you wanted to compare streamed Qobuz vs. UPnP; at least that way once the data gets to your switch, afterwards all of the hardware is the same.

But if you're trying to compare a downloaded Qobuz file replayed from your UPnP server vs. the exact same file from a cd you've ripped and put on your iPhone, I submit you're not comparing UPnP vs. Qobuz but rather UPnP vs. iPhone/front panel input.

What, exactly, do you want to compare?

FWIW I've compared streamed albums from Qobuz (via optical cable from a pc) with ripped CDs of the same albums on the hard drive of the same PC and can't hear a difference thus confirming my decision to never buy another CD.

I have difficulty to follow: why does the same sound quality between qobuz streams and ripped CD support the choice not to buy CDs? Why doesn't it support the choice of buying CDs? Is it a matter of costs, convenience, aesthetics ? Or something else ? I am missing the point.

If you are using LMS it may be possible for you to install the Squeeze2uPnP app as well as the Qobuz plugin. That way you can compare like for like. I've been using Squeeze2uPnP into my Uniti2 since November and although still in development, it works really well and I personally much prefer the Squeezebox control apps to the Naim app. There's a couple of threads on the squeezebox forum worth looking at. 

With regard to Qobuz I find the quality excellent and generally prefer their versions to versions already ripped on my server and both played through LMS. Brothers in Arms is a case in point.

P.S. With Squeeze2uPnP and the new PlayHLS plugin I can also play the revised BBC streams via uPnP into the Uniti2.

I think what the OP is saying is that now he can listen to anything he chooses at CD quality, he'd rather have a choice of millions rather than be limited to his own collection.

Exactly, thanks Mr Goon525 - for £20 a month (which should go down soon given the state of the Euro!) I have access to pretty much anything I ever want to listen to. Thus the need to own becomes irrelevant as long as there is at least one lossless streaming service available. My ripped CDs are now just a backup for time when the internet goes down - rare but not unknown in my rural location.

This is a paradigm shift in musical enjoyment for me and at a lower cost than my previous spend on CDs.

I look forward to when Naim Audio enables streaming of one of the 'lossless' services through the NDS. Then, inevitably I will make the comparison. However, currently I have ~1,500 CDs ripped to my NS01 and often find, when I just want to hear something, that the choice can be a problem - I'm sure that sometimes I spend longer browsing the collection on the iPad than listening to the album I eventually select. Heaven knows how I'll cope with an almost unlimited resource!

I'm finding the same.

G

Yup, there's s paradigm shift in how one thinks. Instead of 'owning' a recording, one can choose from anything one fancies. Maybe there's not the same sense of involvement, it's early to tell. I listen mainly to classical. Last night I fancied the Franck violin sonata. I have an excellent, well reviewed version by Chung and Lupu, which I've not listened to in about twenty years. But instead of plucking that from my shelf, I had a look at what Qobuz had to offer - dozens of versions. I chose a very recent well-received version by Capucon and Buniatishivli. Thoroughly enjoyed it, but chances are I'll never hear it again. Or  I can check out Diana Krall's new CD of covers of pop songs, and save myself some dosh by realising that it's really rather dreary. It's an interesting new world, and adjusting oneself to the thought that the thousands invested in owning physical media are basically money down the drain - with a few exceptions where there's stunning accompanying material.

Ah... I see, thanks! Although the two options do not exclude each other in any way, it seems to me.

But why would you buy the CD? I've got one or two artists I care about enough to want to own the CD, but beyond that....

Me; for one. I'm not interested in buying music, other than on physical media. The sense of impermanence and reliance on the internet irks me to negative interest.

But; the tide is turning and I'm probably in the minority.

With regard to Hi-Res reissues, provenance (as often stated) is all. Unless the original master tape (Vertigo 824499) has been used and sympathetically remastered in HR, it's all nought but fluff, stuff and marketing twaddle.

John.

I agree lossless streaming will open up new ways of mass consuming musical contents. But I am not sure I am interested. And I would certainly not consider the investments I have made to be worthless. On one hand, I would not be where I am (for the good and for the bad) if I hadn't spent that money and that time. On the other hand, I see a value in being independent of whatever mass provider of whatever contents. And I do not see any obvious value in an overwhelming number of possibilities. On the contrary, in fact. But we'll see. Best, nbpf 

At the moment I do not buy so many CDs but I am not so much interested in audio streaming either. I do not like the web pages of the providers I have checked so far, they all look quite cluttered. I am not interested in searching and selecting music through an interface I do not like. For video streaming I have been regularly using the Digital Concert Hall of the BPO for about one an a half year, meanwhile. I watch the concerts on an iMac connected via optical with the nDAC. It works just fine. Otherwise, I tend to buy entire albums in flac format, in particular if they come with high quality booklets in pdf format. I mainly browse my music (served by MPD running on a Linux box) via a text-based MPD client (ncmpcpp, my wife uses an app on her iPad) from my laptop. I can display the booklet of the current album in fullscreen by just pressing a key. I can hardly imagine a better solution for me at the moment. Best, nbpf 

Getting back vaguely on topic, it just so happens that Mark Knopfler is one of the very few artists whose physical work I will continue to collect (Tracker is on order). Re Brothers in Arms, I remember buying a remasterered CD about fifteen years ago which actually was a bit better than the original. But thinking about how the original was mastered in the early digital days of 1985, it's difficult to see how 96/24 can really add anything in this case. I'd be interested to hear from anyone who has made the comparison.

Incidentally, does everyone know the story that at one point in 1985/6, there were more copies of the BiA CD in Britain than CD players?

I bought a copy on tape and CD even though I didn't have a CD Player and wasn't allowed to use my Dad's!

I buy the new Mark Knopfler every time he releases it... A few other key names are on my "just get it" list as well. 

Apropos streaming, I have Spotify working here smoothly integrated on the SuperUniti and via AirPlay or iPod into USB on the Qute. First mention of a new MK was thanks to Goon above... So I mute the hockey game (Maple Leafs are losing to Jets) and search Spotify. I have the new single ("Beryl", which happens to be my Mum's name) playing ... but then what do I find?? Virtually a hollow catalog from Knopfler and, switching back in time, a rather less than half complete list from Dire Straits. Until this point, I have only "stumped" Spotify on second tier artists or local heroes. I guess it turns out that 25M albums isn't anything like enough!

As for the sound, I like the quality and notice differences when I compare but not so much when just listening especially as I do "other stuff". Would I switch for CD quality streaming? Probably, but I'm just as happy to wait for Spotify to add it, or for Naim to incorporate another partner. I like the way the naim app and remote can play, pause, skip forward without going back to the Spotify app; I like that the Spotify app looks and feels like the naim app for search, play, shuffle (although the duplication of volume only on the "now playing" screen is a step too far imho). 

To to the concept of "listen once", I'm happy not to purchase individual media for transient titles. But it isn't only that, since the ability to tag favorites as "my music" and listen again (or download for the car or while on travel and in planes and airports) provides functionality equivalent to buying the CD and ripping the iTunes version for mobility. That said, I like pianist Paul Lewis, and have listened several times to his newest (Pictures At An Exhibition) both streamed and downloaded. I find myself thinking about heading to the store to buy it, since I don't really feel like it's "mine". Others have said similar things...although clearly I'm not in the camp where I don't want to pay for a service rather than (or in addition to?) physical media. For me, this is the biggest piece of evidence that there is a hurdle in jumping to the new paradigm...and it is very high for some, very low for others and somewhere in between (although I wouldn't give it a Goldilocks "just right" rating!!). 

Sorry for for the rambling and cross-thead thinking. Thanks if you read this far. 

Regards, alan 

Actually, Knopfler/DS have sold about 130M albums - 25M is the figure for Brothers in Arms alone.

like you, I like Paul Lewis, and have all his Beethoven and Schubert. I haven't heard his Pictures yet, but the version I bought a year or so ago by Steven Osborne is keeping me very happy.

I stream a lot via Qobuz, but despite everything with my Naim playback system the Naim ND player running UPnP sounds the best and most natural.. If I can try and calibrate the difference it it might be the difference perceived between the 282HiCapDR and the 252/SupercapDR. I put this down to the noisier clock of my Qobuz digital source.

So currently I use Qobuz for discovery... including comparing different masters etc.. But if I really enjoy a piece of music, album, EP I often purchase it... Either as lossless download or CD. The latter is often the format of choice as it usually offers better value. Of course there is not an insignificant amount of music I search for that is only available by CD...

I sometimes use Shazam to check the audio of a CD I purchased that I could not find any other way.. If it is not in iTunes, Youtube , Spotify or even on the Shazam database, the chances are you can only obtain it via CD.

Simon

Wow, thank you for all the replies!

@ Bart: it all started with trying to explain why there are differences in SQ with the different delivery means. You're right, this can only be acomplished when using the same data for each stream in the comparison. I'm working on that :-).

@ PaulinPosset: thanks for your suggestions. It will take some time to figure them all out, specially because I'm currently also implementing a NAS in my network to stream from. Your solution's can probably help me to get closer to my goal: stream from NAS, Spotify and Qobuz to the UQ2, controlling it from my iPad without getting out off my chair. Currently that is for qobuz still a challenge! I don't want my computer(s) or NAS near the QU2(noise!).

@ Goon525, nbpf, pev and all others, I probably still will buy stuff, just because I want to listen to material better than CD quality or because Spotify or Qobuz don't have it in their collection. When I buy material, I put it  (rip if necessary) on my NAS and expect the same SQ (or better) as played from CD.

Thanks for your reply. You've lost me with the quote above. Can you explain or tell me where I can read more On this? Many thanks in advance!