Ethernet Gigabit Switch for Audio

Posted by: Gajdzin on 02 March 2015

In recent years I have seen many questions of the type: "what's the best ethernet switch for my streaming system?" Or: "is there a dedicated audio switch, just like there are dedicated audio ethernet cables"?

 

Well, I accidentally found one, which I want to share here. It's from a company whose products I use in my home recording studio: MOTU (Mark Of The Unicorn). It's called "AVB SWITCH". You can find it on the internet. Expensive when compared to cheap, home ethernet switches, but then again AudioQuest ethernet cables are vastly more expensive than your regular ethernet cable Also, MOTU is not known for "snake oil" - they cater to the professional recording crowd and their products have a great reputation. My main studio interface is a MOTU 828MkIII Hybrid.

 

I wonder if someone will try it out one day and report on whether it brought any sonic improvements.

 

Marcin Bruczkowski

www.marcin.bruczkowski.com

www.facebook.com/MarcinBruczkowskiAutor

Posted on: 03 March 2015 by johnG

As when I pull the ethernet connection from my NDX and it happily continues to play a track from its buffer then the issue of latency is rather moot in the average home network, is it not ?

Posted on: 03 March 2015 by Gajdzin
Originally Posted by johnG:

As when I pull the ethernet connection from my NDX and it happily continues to play a track from its buffer then the issue of latency is rather moot in the average home network, is it not ?

That's exactly what I said at the top of this thread:

 

",,,the main benefit advertised by MOTU for this product is low latency. Important when recording, but meaningless on playback, which is what we are talking about here"

Posted on: 03 March 2015 by Mulberry
Originally Posted by Simon-in-Suffolk:
Actually getting pedantic and technical, low latency switches are not always desirable unless the physical data signal is of a guaranteed high quality. Most quality  managed switches allow you to sacrifice latency for improved reliability. Essentially you can tell your switch to receive more of the frame before onward processing and switching. This prevents bad or errored framed travelling across your network to be later discarded. However to receive more of the frame requires time, and therefore increased latency.

Speaking from a professional perspective, the best switch for the job will entirely depend on the network configuration and applications you are using. For a simple home network with little or no DSCP/QoS, none specific multicast groups, no monitoring or SNMP requirements, no bonding/EtherChannel, no Spanning Tree or other topology management features and simple flat LANS (no VLANS) then I suspect a bog standard Netgear consumer device will be fine.

The quality of audio on connected equipment I am sure will most be driven by conducted RFI and noise, and so chokes and good quality SMPS/Linear PSU will no doubt make an audible difference.

Simon

 

Posts like this were a big reason for me to join the forum before returning to the world of Naim products (I owned the Aro for some time). There is a real chance to actually learn something useful in many of the threads. So please continue to be pedantic and technical ... .

 

I also appreciate the general lack of hostility around here. Maybe the claming influence of all theses green lights?

Posted on: 03 March 2015 by Gajdzin
Originally Posted by Simon-in-Suffolk:
Actually getting pedantic and technical, low latency switches are not always desirable unless the physical data signal is of a guaranteed high quality.

And for the Nth time Simon has saved the day. And my wallet. Simon, the number of beers I owe you will soon justify opening a brewery. Maybe you could visit Warsaw on Thursday? It's my 50th birthday, I decided to throw a real birthday bash for the first time in my life. I rented a bar with a stage and invited 78 friends, 1/3 of them are musicians, we are going to jam all night. Live music - zero latency

Posted on: 03 March 2015 by George J

Just the speed of sound and the delay the further away you are!

 

Best wishes and many happy returns! George

Posted on: 03 March 2015 by Simon-in-Suffolk

Gajdzin, happy birthday.. Have a beer or three for me with the money you have just saved 

 

Mulberry, thanks, you are welcome.

Posted on: 04 March 2015 by james n
Originally Posted by Mulberry:
Originally Posted by Simon-in-Suffolk:
Actually getting pedantic and technical, low latency switches are not always desirable unless the physical data signal is of a guaranteed high quality. Most quality  managed switches allow you to sacrifice latency for improved reliability. Essentially you can tell your switch to receive more of the frame before onward processing and switching. This prevents bad or errored framed travelling across your network to be later discarded. However to receive more of the frame requires time, and therefore increased latency.

Speaking from a professional perspective, the best switch for the job will entirely depend on the network configuration and applications you are using. For a simple home network with little or no DSCP/QoS, none specific multicast groups, no monitoring or SNMP requirements, no bonding/EtherChannel, no Spanning Tree or other topology management features and simple flat LANS (no VLANS) then I suspect a bog standard Netgear consumer device will be fine.

The quality of audio on connected equipment I am sure will most be driven by conducted RFI and noise, and so chokes and good quality SMPS/Linear PSU will no doubt make an audible difference.

Simon

 

Posts like this were a big reason for me to join the forum before returning to the world of Naim products (I owned the Aro for some time). There is a real chance to actually learn something useful in many of the threads. So please continue to be pedantic and technical ... .

 

I also appreciate the general lack of hostility around here. Maybe the claming influence of all theses green lights?

Yep - it's a pretty good place with plenty of advice available (and good to know my little £20 Netgear switch is doing a sterling job too)

Posted on: 04 March 2015 by Jota

I vote he saves his money, buys an inexpensive switch that does the job perfectly well and use the money he 'saved' to buy some nice new music, a bottle of his favourite tipple and has the night off to enjoy his new purchases!

Posted on: 04 March 2015 by Fokkelman

Best wishes Gajdzin! 

 

I have two Audioquest ethernet cables and very happy with them. They make a positive sonic difference. At least for me. ;-)

Posted on: 04 March 2015 by dzambolaja

I have just added a new Linksys WRT 8 port gigabit switch to my network and the following happened:

 

1. Internet speed went from mere 1.5 Mbps to 17 Mpbs

2. 4G wireless reception on my 4g modem-router went from average 3 bars to 4

3. iRadio now works like a charm, no delays, drop outs, buffering etc.

 

I have no idea what did the switch have to do with effect No. 2 but it DID do something good, obviously

 

WiFi network is provided by Apple TC in bridge mode.

 

Now all devices are plugged into the switch and everything works like the charm.

 

I can only conclude that ATC internal switch is average, at best ?

 

Bobby

 

Posted on: 05 March 2015 by Jonas Olofsson
I could try one, just ned to figure out where to buy them (Im in Sweden).

Did email the Swedish Dist yesterday.

//Jonas
Posted on: 06 March 2015 by Gajdzin
Originally Posted by Jonas Olofsson:
I could try one, just ned to figure out where to buy them (Im in Sweden).

Did email the Swedish Dist yesterday.

//Jonas

Looking forward to your impressions, Jonas!

Posted on: 06 March 2015 by dzambolaja
Originally Posted by Fokkelman:

Best wishes Gajdzin! 

 

I have two Audioquest ethernet cables and very happy with them. They make a positive sonic difference. At least for me. ;-)

are they Cat 5 or Cat 6?

 

Posted on: 06 March 2015 by Mike-B
Originally Posted by dzambolaja:
are they Cat 5 or Cat 6? 

 

Cat 7.  

Posted on: 08 March 2015 by Adrian F.

I had a look at the MOTU Website:

http://www.motu.com/products/avb/avb-switch

 

It's not only a "normal" ethernet switch, because it supports this IEEE802.1 AVB (Audio Video Bridging) protocol. As Gajdzin has said, this is important in a pro studio environment for low latency and sync issues.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_Video_Bridging

 

But this only works, when all the involved devices are capable of the IEEE802.1 AVB protocol. Which I guess in a private home neither my NDS nor my NAS or other usual "non studio" devices will be be capable of. So the switch will fall back to standard ethernet and you ending up to pay more for a pro feature, you can't use...

 

I'm still looking forward to hear the feedback of a test. Even if this software feature doesn't help, probably the hardware could be built better? Like the bigger buffers Simon mentioned, or better shielding, or if nothing else helps: a better powersupply (we are in a naim forum after all ;-)

Posted on: 08 March 2015 by Gajdzin
Originally Posted by Adrian F.:

I had a look at the MOTU Website:

http://www.motu.com/products/avb/avb-switch

 

It's not only a "normal" ethernet switch, because it supports this IEEE802.1 AVB (Audio Video Bridging) protocol. As Gajdzin has said, this is important in a pro studio environment for low latency and sync issues.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_Video_Bridging

 

But this only works, when all the involved devices are capable of the IEEE802.1 AVB protocol. Which I guess in a private home neither my NDS nor my NAS or other usual "non studio" devices will be be capable of. So the switch will fall back to standard ethernet and you ending up to pay more for a pro feature, you can't use...

 

I'm still looking forward to hear the feedback of a test. Even if this software feature doesn't help, probably the hardware could be built better? Like the bigger buffers Simon mentioned, or better shielding, or if nothing else helps: a better powersupply (we are in a naim forum after all ;-)

Kudos to Adrian for saving the more adventurous of us from blowing a wad of cash on this switch! I should have noticed that in the first place...

 

And yes, Simon here advised in several threads that replacing the switching mode power supply in any switch with an in-line supply is the first and the best streaming system upgrade one can make. This and of course putting all your audio devices on a separate ethernet switch. But if so many forum members claim the lowly ethernet cable makes a difference, I just can't believe some switches won't produce less RF or errors resulting in jitter on decode, than others...