Naim NDX vs Auralic Aries into Hugo

Mr Mole, Mac Mini, Mango Monkey, how is one to keep up?

Well I guess Mr Mole should have used a base or a radix in his notation and written it as 112

or equivalent.  But then it might not have been such a good teaser. 

:-)  Simon, I certainly hope that my efforts have contributed to the goods results I am getting.  Must admit though, I've never attempted an A / B comparison of the Music PC vs a completely out-of-the-box one.  When I decided I wanted to try using a computer with my system about 18 months ago, there was no way that any old PC was moving in, so the machine was built with many optimisations in place from the start.  The tweaking phase with the PC ended some months ago now, I was happy that I'd done all I could, or was prepared to, but more importantly it reached a point where it sounded 'right' to me.  I believe all the tweakery I've done brings a result greater than the sum of the parts, and the same applies to all my other non-digital efforts.  As with many things in hifi, one small change may not bring a night and day difference, but twenty or so combined can be a different story, though it's very difficult to make an A/B comparison between no tweaks and twenty of them.  

I have done a back to back test comparing my windows server pc running j river at bit perfect into my hugo compared to the digital out of my uq2 in y o my hugo. I was surprised how good the pc was but there was clearly electrical noise coming through from the pc. The pc had good detail and separation and was very clear but lacked body compared to the qute. It was good enough to make me consider how good a computer source that coild control the electrical noise could be. Bits may be bits but there is more involved in the final sound than just those bits, and I would imagine that the reason a bespoke music computer,  or a streamer, sound better is that they manage these other factors better

No need to suffer any longer - there are plenty of companies that provide 'skins' for MMs including black e.g. iCarbons  

Surely in half of these solution resides some form of pc/mac/linux platform anyway. 

I have built (2)  and tried many servers streamers , compare two side by side into the same dac unsighted.

H

DHT I'm amazed then you do not hear any difference. Saying this i have only heard one pc based solution in my system. All others I've tried have been off the shelf box units like the Aries.

I'm with you 100% on this Mr Wat. I use an iMac and Chord QBD76 HDSD but basically the same system. I also use Amarra iRC in place of Audirvana, simply because Amarra incorporates Dirac room correction, which I wouldn't be without nowadays - the most cost-effective upgrade I've ever made.

I've meddled with NAS, and now use two of them for backup purposes only. I've just spent a frustrating couple of weeks with a QNAP NAS with the intention of using it as a server I can access from our second home, and to supply uPnP music to my Mu-so in the conservatory, but it just doesn't work consistently enough. Asset on the iMac's OK for the Mu-so but even then, Airplay is easier.

No, you can't beat a computer with attached HD for simplicity and consistency.

Sensible post, @ Foxy have you tried an unsighted comparison between 'transports' you have to ask someone else to change inputs, if you know which you are listening to then bias takes over.

H

Blind testing won't help.

Once you've convinced yourself there can't be any differences, because you can't explain why there could be,  you won't hear any differences even though they might still be there.

That phenomena is called expectation bias.

Yes and No, buy this i mean i have done in the past but i don't usually bother with it now. I understand where you are coming from and while i agree to a point, i'm not sure i totally agree with Aleg above in a black and white approach.

If there is a large enough difference between two products then i don't believe this requires a blind test. Its like testing a Naim amp against a CJ valve amp, there is no way you would need a blind test to hear a difference between the two. I'm not talking about which you prefer here, but just that a difference is audible.

Now if the differences are that small that you need to do blind tests to ascertain if there is actually a difference, then i begin to wonder if the its worth even talking about. In these cases i think Aleg and yourself are correct in this statement, it is very easy to either convince yourself or indeed the reverse and convince yourself no difference exists.

I am too long in the tooth to worry about these minuscule differences especially where money is concerned. I want bangs for my bucks these days. But just to contradict myself i will be looking into ethernet cables as there is a clear difference here, though not huge, but great enough for me to not warrant a blind test. Or is this listening bias, i think not when i am not expecting to hear a difference in the first place. Who knows.

As i mentioned i have only tried one PC based solution, so i wonder if the same software running on different platforms, mac/win/linux, would sound identical. I obviously can't answer that, but it would be interesting to hear others opinions.

Graeme

I was just trying to make a point that the expectation bias also works the other way around.

If you've got a negative expectation you will be biased just as well as when you've got a positive expectation.

The b-r-b clan only wants this bias argument applied to the 'other side' and not to their own arguments, which is of course nonsense, as it works both ways.

That's why I think this blind testing isn't able to 'prove' much, unless one is completely open and unexpecting.

I see what you mean. In other words if you were to to do blind listening test, you would almost have to not know what it even was you were going to listen too so you could not add your own prejudice to the test.

This must be a true blind listening test.

This could be very interesting indeed, i bet many would not be willing to do this as egg on face maybe had. Myself included here, but interesting none the less.

It's more to test a sighted impression.  Expectation doesn't really come into it as by definition, if you are convinced you are hearing a difference in a sighted comparison - you are already biased.

Blind testing has the unfortunate habit of revealing these situations as having been not quite what they appear.  Break the connection between what you see v what you hear and all sorts of things happen.

The above debate does not appear to take into account that some/many audio professionals have trained their hearing to listen out for shortcomings .. I have done this for my work for example .. these professionals are referred to in some projects as 'golden ears'. This can also help you differentiate performance between different audio and voice replay systems. For me this has also spilled over into domestic hifi which is perhaps not a good thing. I have not found a way of unlearning this and often seem more sensitive to audio reproduction shortcomings that I would like.

Simon

http://www.audio.uni-lueneburg...itical_Listening.pdf

First they would have to hear differences, then they could decide whether they were shortcomings.  Ears, trained or otherwise often prove stubbornly resistent to consistently picking a difference.  That's before we go anywhere near the 'if you have to be trained to listen for it' discussions around important 'shortcomings'.

In that paper, I see recommendations for headphones.  Interesting that both the initial closed back recs are classic 'V' in presentation.  I would expect that to fall foul as a shortcoming.

I do know people who's analysis of sound quality causes them great angst, even prevents them enjoying some albums/music they otherwise would enjoy.  Like all interests, I guess it can be taken so far into minutiae that you lose some of the purpose.  Or it becomes an obsession in it's own right.

I do wonder if sometimes we do listen for minute changes or details that really do not have any bearing on the actual enjoyment of the music.

Sometimes when trying cables you can hear a change but it can be very difficult to determine which i prefer, and even then does it really make any difference to the enjoyment of the music

Joe Bibb and Graeme I agree with some of your comments - this sort of thing can become obsessive - especially when there is no particular objectivity to your critical listening - ie you are not listening out for something.

I also feel, within reason, this sort of critical listening to audio replay performance is not essential to the music enjoyment. However hearing something that is noticeably wrong starts to jar and that then can become a barrier to musical enjoyment from the afflicted system. If you don't notice it however - you are the none the wiser... hence my point. But the logic of this does tend to lead to an interesting conclusion....

Our brains recognize  patterns - if we use our imagination and  see a dragon in the shape of the clouds its hard then not see that dragon until the shape of the clouds disperses.

Simon

For me these are two different modes of listening.

When doing tests on new software releases, I have a bunch of tracks that I know will show certain types of sound when the software behaves optimally. So I'm more listening to the sound that is produced.

When listening for leisure I just take in the whole of it and the musical side of the performance. In that case I'm listening to the music. I won't listen for specific sound quality aspects in leisurely session, though it does contribute to the overall pleisure when it sounds 'right'. 

Cheers

I'm very happy with my BDP-2 > Hugo combination.  I can confirm that the BDP has USB, SPDif and AES outputs and does DSD128 over USB

Hi Norton

thats very interesting, there is no mention of it supporting DSD on their website or anywhere else as far as i can see.

Graeme

Yes, they tend to undersell their products...maybe they (rightly?) discount the importance of DSD128, given the dearth of material.  I have lots of DSD64 downloads, but have only tried DSD128 test files.

The BDP also has a CD memory play/rip to internal storage facility I hope to play with shortly.

Most bizarre, but another one to add to the audition list 

Why is the imminent ND software update only offering DSD64 capability, is this down to the lack of USB output.