Naim NDX vs Auralic Aries into Hugo

Posted by: Foxman50 on 07 April 2015

Well firstly i would like to thank Jack and Bryan over at The AudioBarn in Harlow for the loan of the Aries. I have to say what a couple of nice fellas and what a pleasant place they have to sit relax and listen to some music in. If your in the area do yourself a favour and pop in, they are clearly Naim fans.

I had written something ready to post before returning the Aries but i have deleted it as my conclusion has changed, or that should be confirmed. The Aries is not for me in my present setup.  It is very detailed, very spacious and a very nice product, with everything i
could want from a specs point of view. It has its foibles and quite frankly the Auralic app is in need of work. Luckily the Lumin app works well and is very nice to use. After four days of listening to the Aries/Hugo combination i do not think the Aries and the Hugo are a good match, not in my system anyway.

I have said before i think the NDX is quite dark sounding and i believe this is lightened by the Hugo, a good match IMO. Adding the Aries to Hugo doubles up this lightness and in my system i think you lose too much body in the music, it sounds too light and uninvolving. Violins and cello lose that deep resonance in the wood, pianos sound too thin and vocals lose depth, the emotional connection has gone and im listening to HiFi. Not a good place to be. I had some success changing cables but not to a degree that i would be happy with.

On returning the Aries, Jack was in the process of comparing the NDX/Hugo against the NDX/Auralic Vega DAC through a 282/250 and audio physic speakers. Well how could i refuse the opportunity to have a quick listen, to be honest we played a very quick track just to hear the difference between the two. The NDX/Hugo sounded very different to my setup, as you would expect. In fact i would say it sounded similar to the Aries did in my system, quite light and thin.
We then put in the Vega and what a difference, an awful lot of body to the music, almost to the point of overpowering. Quite surprised by this swing.

I mentioned that maybe the Aries is voiced to suite the Vega, so we put it in place of the NDX and i have to say i think this gave the best sound. To be fair we played a single track, so hardly an in depth test, but definitely something to this pair.

So the Aries/Vega combination, now this has got me thinking, i may well be going back quite soon for a proper dem.

Posted on: 22 April 2015 by Foxman50

What an interesting product. And what a good solution to use the Oppo base.

Posted on: 02 May 2015 by k90tour2

Hi Foxman.

Where did you get with this? I wasn't going to bother trying my NDS as a digital out into the Hugo.  But just done it and it is the best music so far.  So I have a 555DR power supply on the analogue doing nothing but keeping the room warm.  I'm wondering if the NDX makes as good as server as an NDS.  I'm not expecting you to know that.  But for me the NDX is a possibility.  The NDS/Hugo is better than Macbook/Hugo.  It's the best of of both worlds. 

So as a server, it could be NDS or NDX , Aurender or Melco.

Posted on: 02 May 2015 by Simon-in-Suffolk

I would expect the NDS to be a superior digital transport to the NDX. The NDS goes further on decoupling and  noise reduction, so I would expect less noise coupled into the SPDIF output. However as a reality check I suspect these differences to be very much in the diminishing returns.

Looking forward to the forthcoming NDX/NDS firmware which should allow native DSD via DoP output on the SPDIF which will work well with the Hugo.

Simon

 

 

Posted on: 03 May 2015 by Foxman50
Originally Posted by k90tour2:

Hi Foxman.

Where did you get with this? I wasn't going to bother trying my NDS as a digital out into the Hugo.  But just done it and it is the best music so far.  So I have a 555DR power supply on the analogue doing nothing but keeping the room warm.  I'm wondering if the NDX makes as good as server as an NDS.  I'm not expecting you to know that.  But for me the NDX is a possibility.  The NDS/Hugo is better than Macbook/Hugo.  It's the best of of both worlds. 

So as a server, it could be NDS or NDX , Aurender or Melco.

Recently ive been messing around with an old laptop running JRiver and JRemote on the ipad. I have to say its really very good indeed, depending on settings that is. It it so much more open and clear compared to the NDX. 

 

I have had to move the speakers around considerably to get it to sound its best. Im going to run this for a few weeks then drop back to the NDX.

 

I think this way i will find which i prefer as swapping back and fourth every five minutes i kind of lose my way after a while.

 

im going to give the Auralic Aries another try and also the Aurender a go and see how i get on with those. Just need to take some time as it gets too much constantly trying new setups.

 

i would imagine, as Simon has said above, the NDS should be a better setup into Hugo than the NDX. And as you say its given you a redundant 555 to put on the market. Bonus.

 

if you get round to trying the Aurender, post your thoughts id be very interested.

 

Graeme

 

 

Posted on: 03 May 2015 by sjbabbey
Originally Posted by Simon-in-Suffolk:

I would expect the NDS to be a superior digital transport to the NDX. The NDS goes further on decoupling and  noise reduction, so I would expect less noise coupled into the SPDIF output. However as a reality check I suspect these differences to be very much in the diminishing returns.

Looking forward to the forthcoming NDX/NDS firmware which should allow native DSD via DoP output on the SPDIF which will work well with the Hugo.

Simon

 

 

Hi Simon

 

Is the DoP format necessary only for outputting to the Hugo because that's the way the Hugo handles DSD files?  I'm interested to know whether the new firmware will enable the naim streamers themselves to play native DSD64 files e.g. DSF or DFF without having to have them wrapped up in a PCM format such as a wav file.

 

Steve

Posted on: 03 May 2015 by k90tour2

Thanks Graeme.  If the NDX alone was 95% of an NDS+ 555, I'd be happier with the former into the Hugo.  My Macbook is far clearer then NDS + 2 x 555 but a lot of that ambient detail is distracting. But it is a much thinner sound. The NDS + 555 into Hugo somehow keeps the best properties of both.  Shame. I held onto my NDX for sometime and have only just sold it.  I'd love to have it back to do the demo. I'm going to see if I get get to where you are via the Mac.

Thanks

 

Richard

Posted on: 03 May 2015 by Aleg
Originally Posted by sjbabbey:
Originally Posted by Simon-in-Suffolk:

I would expect the NDS to be a superior digital transport to the NDX. The NDS goes further on decoupling and  noise reduction, so I would expect less noise coupled into the SPDIF output. However as a reality check I suspect these differences to be very much in the diminishing returns.

Looking forward to the forthcoming NDX/NDS firmware which should allow native DSD via DoP output on the SPDIF which will work well with the Hugo.

Simon

 

 

Hi Simon

 

Is the DoP format necessary only for outputting to the Hugo because that's the way the Hugo handles DSD files?  I'm interested to know whether the new firmware will enable the naim streamers themselves to play native DSD64 files e.g. DSF or DFF without having to have them wrapped up in a PCM format such as a wav file.

 

Steve

Hugo expects all DSD data to be encapsultated in DoP-format.

A suitable player will do that for you during playback of DSF/DFF files.

Or if you prefer a player that doesn't 'do' DoP you can encapsulate DSF/DFF files beforehand in DoP-format and than they can be played as a 176.4 PCM-file.

 

NAIM streamers with the new firmware will play DSF/DFF files directly and convert them internally into 768 kHz 'PCM' files which are played AS PCM by the DAC-chip that Naim uses. There is no need for DoP here, because the DAC is inside the player/streamer so it doesn't have to be transported to another box. This transport to the other box (external DAC) is what the DoP-format is for.

 

Cheers

Posted on: 03 May 2015 by sjbabbey

Thanks Aleg

 

That's great news. This is what I was hoping i.e. that I won't need to set my server software to transcode my DSF files to DoP for them to be playable by the NDS. 

Posted on: 03 May 2015 by Foxman50
Originally Posted by k90tour2:

Thanks Graeme.  If the NDX alone was 95% of an NDS+ 555, I'd be happier with the former into the Hugo.  My Macbook is far clearer then NDS + 2 x 555 but a lot of that ambient detail is distracting. But it is a much thinner sound. The NDS + 555 into Hugo somehow keeps the best properties of both.  Shame. I held onto my NDX for sometime and have only just sold it.  I'd love to have it back to do the demo. I'm going to see if I get get to where you are via the Mac.

Thanks

 

Richard

K90

 

this is exactly why i want to leave JRiver running for a while. its easy to get lost and think the extra detail and prestine presentation is good, but after a while you realise the music as a whole is not correct.

 

i don't know exactly why this is, its a very strange effect but i have witnessed it on countless occasions.and no its not anything to do with Naim or Prat.

 

its a bit like a car having a 0 to 60 time of 5 seconds, its quick but doesn't mean its nice to drive.

 

Graeme

Posted on: 03 May 2015 by analogmusic
are you using the hi speed USB input on the Hugo with the Macbook?
 
Originally Posted by k90tour2:

Thanks Graeme.  If the NDX alone was 95% of an NDS+ 555, I'd be happier with the former into the Hugo.  My Macbook is far clearer then NDS + 2 x 555 but a lot of that ambient detail is distracting. But it is a much thinner sound. The NDS + 555 into Hugo somehow keeps the best properties of both.  Shame. I held onto my NDX for sometime and have only just sold it.  I'd love to have it back to do the demo. I'm going to see if I get get to where you are via the Mac.

Thanks

 

Richard

 

Posted on: 03 May 2015 by k90tour2
Originally Posted by Foxman50:
Originally Posted by k90tour2:

Thanks Graeme.  If the NDX alone was 95% of an NDS+ 555, I'd be happier with the former into the Hugo.  My Macbook is far clearer then NDS + 2 x 555 but a lot of that ambient detail is distracting. But it is a much thinner sound. The NDS + 555 into Hugo somehow keeps the best properties of both.  Shame. I held onto my NDX for sometime and have only just sold it.  I'd love to have it back to do the demo. I'm going to see if I get get to where you are via the Mac.

Thanks

 

Richard

K90

 

this is exactly why i want to leave JRiver running for a while. its easy to get lost and think the extra detail and prestine presentation is good, but after a while you realise the music as a whole is not correct.

 

i don't know exactly why this is, its a very strange effect but i have witnessed it on countless occasions.and no its not anything to do with Naim or Prat.

 

its a bit like a car having a 0 to 60 time of 5 seconds, its quick but doesn't mean its nice to drive.

 

Graeme

Totally agreed

Posted on: 03 May 2015 by k90tour2
Originally Posted by analogmusic:
are you using the hi speed USB input on the Hugo with the Macbook?
 
Originally Posted by k90tour2:

Thanks Graeme.  If the NDX alone was 95% of an NDS+ 555, I'd be happier with the former into the Hugo.  My Macbook is far clearer then NDS + 2 x 555 but a lot of that ambient detail is distracting. But it is a much thinner sound. The NDS + 555 into Hugo somehow keeps the best properties of both.  Shame. I held onto my NDX for sometime and have only just sold it.  I'd love to have it back to do the demo. I'm going to see if I get get to where you are via the Mac.

Thanks

 

Richard

 

I am, indeed.

Posted on: 03 May 2015 by analogmusic

Supposed to be the best input

 

right now I am using optical and my Hugo is sounding fantastic. Try it.

Posted on: 03 May 2015 by k90tour2
Originally Posted by analogmusic:

Supposed to be the best input

 

right now I am using optical and my Hugo is sounding fantastic. Try it.

Yes I will.  I have a Mac Mini nearer the Hugo and can try that.  The Hugo is staying.  The NDS/Hugo is a revelation.  I saw a review of streamers on the Devialet Forum and the Aurender came out very well indeed.  The Melco was supposedly slightly better on SQ but failed on user friendliness. If I could get the NDS quality out of a Mac that I already own, that would be fantastic.

Posted on: 03 May 2015 by k90tour2
Originally Posted by analogmusic:

Supposed to be the best input

 

right now I am using optical and my Hugo is sounding fantastic. Try it.

What software on your Mac are you using?

Posted on: 03 May 2015 by analogmusic

I use a Squeezebox touch. 

Posted on: 03 May 2015 by analogmusic

By the way - my Hugo took around 2 weeks to run in.

 

Now it's a different product compared to day 1.

 

It's fun, energetic, full of PRAT, and as musical as I could want.

 

I am having so much fun listening to it now.

 

Wait for that moment, you'll know when you just forget about the equipment and get lost in the music and keep playing one track after the other.

 

I don't think these comparisons to NDS and KDS are good ones. It is just another league of DAC and a better technology. 

 

Posted on: 03 May 2015 by Simon-in-Suffolk
Originally Posted by sjbabbey:

Hi Simon

 

Is the DoP format necessary only for outputting to the Hugo because that's the way the Hugo handles DSD files?  I'm interested to know whether the new firmware will enable the naim streamers themselves to play native DSD64 files e.g. DSF or DFF without having to have them wrapped up in a PCM format such as a wav file.

 

Steve

Hi, DoP is simply way of transmitting DSD encoded data using a data container that is designed for 24 multibit sample data such as SPDIF. 

 

The Hugo and most other recent DSD DACs I am aware of support DoP as a way receiving DSD data via an SPDIF and USB input .

We need to be clear that DoP has no resemblance to actual PCM encoded sample data, and are entirely seperate.

if you tried to play DoP into a DAC that couldn't detect the special DSD encoding you would hear a loud digital hash or static.

 

i expect the new firmware to play DSD64 files. The new firmware will I anticipate support the outputting of DSD via the SPDIF BNC output. This DSD bit stream will neccessarily be formatted using DoP constructed  SPDIF. Clearly internally within the Naim player formatting the DSD data this way would be inefficient and almost certainly unnecessary.

 

Simon

 

Posted on: 03 May 2015 by Foxman50
Originally Posted by k90tour2:
Originally Posted by analogmusic:

Supposed to be the best input

 

right now I am using optical and my Hugo is sounding fantastic. Try it.

Yes I will.  I have a Mac Mini nearer the Hugo and can try that.  The Hugo is staying.  The NDS/Hugo is a revelation.  I saw a review of streamers on the Devialet Forum and the Aurender came out very well indeed.  The Melco was supposedly slightly better on SQ but failed on user friendliness. If I could get the NDS quality out of a Mac that I already own, that would be fantastic.

Again let us know how you get on with the Mac Mini/Hugo as this is something i'd be very interested in as this is maybe the way i'm heading, well at least from functionality/flexibility point of view. If you can get close to the NDS/Hugo with the mini that would indeed be a revelation.

 

Graeme

Posted on: 05 May 2015 by Chag...
Originally Posted by Simon-in-Suffolk:
The new firmware will I anticipate support the outputting of DSD via the SPDIF BNC output. This DSD bit stream will neccessarily be formatted using DoP constructed  SPDIF.  

Maybe not much longer to wait. I understood from a relatively well informed source yesterday that the firmware update should be released for Munich next week. 

 

Chag -

Posted on: 17 May 2015 by Chag...

I guess I was wrong. For those attending Munich, would you know latest status on the firmware update? I understood it has been in public beta for quite a while now. Was the release just delayed for the DR/009 upgrade announcement?

 

Chag -

Posted on: 17 May 2015 by Foxman50
Originally Posted by Chag...:

I guess I was wrong. For those attending Munich, would you know latest status on the firmware update? I understood it has been in public beta for quite a while now. Was the release just delayed for the DR/009 upgrade announcement?

 

Chag -

Chag, im sure i read on one of the recent posts that there are still issues to resolve. It had better be perfect when its released

Posted on: 17 May 2015 by Pete the painter
Originally Posted by Chag...:

I guess I was wrong. For those attending Munich, would you know latest status on the firmware update? I understood it has been in public beta for quite a while now. Was the release just delayed for the DR/009 upgrade announcement?

 

Chag -

Hi Chag, I'm interested in your avatar (the painting). It hangs in my Naim dealers showroom in Sydney, I painted it almost 20 years ago (old case work) and glad to see someone else appreciates it.

 

Cheers

PG

Posted on: 17 May 2015 by Chag...
Originally Posted by Pete the painter:
Hi Chag, I'm interested in your avatar (the painting). It hangs in my Naim dealers showroom in Sydney, I painted it almost 20 years ago (old case work) and glad to see someone else appreciates it.

 

Cheers

PG

Hi Pete;

 

This is a very nice painting indeed! I found it a few years ago on the web. I assumed then that it was in the public domain. Please let me know otherwise and I will drop it. 

I see it as a great bridge between arts I affection the most and our cherished brand. Also an allusion to our addiction to collect, and pile, chrome, olive, black and.. white boxes.

 

Thank you again for such a great painting.

 

Best regards,

Chag -

Posted on: 17 May 2015 by Pete the painter
Originally Posted by Chag...:
Originally Posted by Pete the painter:
Hi Chag, I'm interested in your avatar (the painting). It hangs in my Naim dealers showroom in Sydney, I painted it almost 20 years ago (old case work) and glad to see someone else appreciates it.

 

Cheers

PG

Hi Pete;

 

This is a very nice painting indeed! I found it a few years ago on the web. I assumed then that it was in the public domain. Please let me know otherwise and I will drop it. 

I see it as a great bridge between arts I affection the most and our cherished brand. Also an allusion to our addiction to collect, and pile, chrome, olive, black and.. white boxes.

 

Thank you again for such a great painting.

 

Best regards,

Chag -

Hi Chag,

 

No problems at all, it wasn't about ownership I was just curious as to where you found it. You most certainly have my permission and I'm glad to see it in use. It was a commission for my dealer and fortunately for me helped introduce me to the brand (unfortunate for my bank balance). He has made more out of it than me.

 

Cheers

PG.