HD Music Streaming over Powerline Adapter

I'm using Netgear Powerline 500 adaptors, then a switch to my Qute 2 and can play 96 Khz/24 bit without problems and as the name suggests they are 500 mbps. The switch is gigabit.

What are you streaming from?

I'm sure one of the knowledgeable ones here can give a few pointers.

Cheers

John

I'm streaming from a Netgear ReadyNas Duo V2 with it's own UPnP (I'm going to put Minim on it).

I think you'll find that the tp link powerline devices are actually 100meg units. Yes I know it's a 500 chipset but it's the el-cheapo chiset which is maximum 95meg tcp throughput (and 100meg lan ports).

You may well be right, they were the ?best? I could find in my local PCripoff store when the old ones failed. Although I'm not bad with PCs and Windows I get a bit lost when it comes down to networking.

Still it works for me (thankfully)

Cheers

John

This seems highly likely.  After a bit of Googling I found this chart which compares actual tested transfer speeds of powerline adapters - http://www.smallnetbuilder.com...harts/powerline/view

Of course, 96K of 24 bits should only need 3Mbps, but in real life...

Again, they were the best I could find a year ago.

I a,m sorry to say but I think using Powerline adapters and the phenominal amount of RF electrical noise they introduce into your house will undermine most of the the benefit of using HD audio files with your Naim.

that aside, Powerline adapters will provide a half duplex link at the best throughput it can on your mains based on other interference and the physical properties of your house wiring. 192/24 is approx 10Mbps and so should be carried unless your mains wiring / environment just can't support the RF bandwidth required... also if on the limit, due to the half duplex nature of the adapters, you might find things get unresponsive or temporarily disappear etc..

Simon

Peter,

Are both ends of the powerline link connected on the same ring main?  If they are on different ring mains, the link has to go through the CU, then it will exacerbate all the effects that Simon describes.

I also second his point about the RFI undermining most of the benefits of HD files, and this view is backed up by my experiments while trying to keep RFI out of my system.

Whilst a big fan of powerline over wifi (which is honestly rubbish!) I admit I use the powerline system purely for non-critical networking. What I mean is the audio NAS sits connected to a small switch which also supports the player. My video NAS sits connected to another switch along with the STB. The powerline interconnection is used for things like backup, printing, and internet traffic. Saying that, in my case it does seem very stable and reliable (but I probably know more of the tricks required to get the best from these products), for example last night I transferred 18GB of video data from my PC (which I saved from my PVR), over wifi and then powerline to the 'video NAS' and it went 100% smoothly with an average transfer speed of 50Mb and that was probably limited by the wifi element in the chain. Take out the wifi and it jumps to about 70meg.

The powerline network to the audio nas is simply there for backing up and for maintenance and to upload new files. It used to also be used for the spotify link which, once I changed ISP, was 100% reliable though I admit that's a very low throughput but it does have to be stable (hence ISP change). Powerline was fine for that purpose. Spotify now junked btw... just not used enough.

Thanks to all for the helpful advice.

Yes, the Naim and the NAS are on different ring mains.   I guess that this means even upgrading to a 1200 might not work.

I admit that the Powerline turns the house wiring in to an RF transmitter.  This hasn't given me any trouble -YET.

At the moment I only have a few HD tracks which I have bought from Qobuz.  When buying I am getting the highest definition available to 'future proof' my digital collection.

At some stage I will need to bite the bullet and get the house Ethernet cabled.  What I will try in the meantime is to get the HD tracks onto a USB stick and plug that into the Mu-so.  I am intrigued to find out if I can hear any difference on that device.

Many thanks...Peter

Don't see how having different ring mains would make any difference to 1200 units. Seeing as even the old 200AV units would be fast enough for what you're trying to do (BTDT) then I'd suggest that moving from even el-cheapo 500AV (I mean with the low spec 500 chipset) units to 1200AV2 units would probably not fix your issues. I'd suggest more thought put into trying to get that noise mains down. Ironically there's all this talk complaining about mains noise and PLT devices when, at the end of the day, PLT devices need clean mains! So filter everything. Using piggy style mains passthrough homeplug units is the easy way to do this.

Just to update on this...

I did try putting the Mu-so on the same ring as the NAS but this made no difference.

Strangely, some music works OK at 24/96.  The Qobuz 'Best of Karajan' mostly streams OK (with the occasional stop) but no pop/rock streams without stopping every few seconds.

Anyway, I'm having the house cabled with Cat5.

Regards...Peter

I had no problems streaming HD music and HD video with the same adaptors so I'm pretty surprised by that, should have added though, that having Ethernet cables fitted made for improved sound

I have use the same units as you describe and when we finish our house move will have to use them again for a time.

I found, when using PoweeLine 500s, that I could quite happily stream 24/196 FLAC files and at times during the day I could also stream 24/196 WAV files but in the evening that would fail - but never had a problem with FLAC.

As to effects with HF, I would forget it.  When I retired  my powerline 500s and went all hardwired I could hear no difference in SQ and I would challenge anyone to contradict this.  I do use mains filters which very successfully remove whatever HF is on the mains and remember you HiFi will also reject much HF rubbish too.  Certainly I would expect companies like NAIM to bypass PSU electrolytics with lower valued caps - most DIYers do this and it works to eliminate HF.  Electrolytics on their own do not reject HF very well, so a 100mic electro is bypassed with a 1mic polyprop, for example.  You can also bypass the bypassed, if you are a bit OCD.

btw I checked this with a very good scope and because the mains has such low impedance the HF interference from PowerLines  is very low.  Someone using a mobile phone within a few metres of the house was producing more HF on the mains than powerlines.

A logical and good answer that cuts through a lot of the rumour and bias.

Ban mobile phones I say! ;-)

Forget TP Link,  go for Devolo 650's, I have no issues with these in my 1960's house,  average throughput is 350mbps with these boys.  I've never had anything but trouble with TP Link products definitely don't do whats said on the box! 

Yes I don't want to bad mouth brands but TP Link products are down there at the VERY cheap (in both senses of the word) from china level.

Hi Peter

I've got a mu-so in the bedroom, which is connected via a switch to the new Solwise 1200 Powerline.  I've also got another Solwise 1200 connected to my router.  Whilst I couldn't play any hi-res files on the mu-so with a TP-Link 500 adapter, this isn't the case with the Solwise - I'm able to go right up to 24-bit 192KHz with no problems.

Hope this helps!

So the TP Link products could only cope with 16bit files (FLAC or WAV you don't say).  That is a very bad advert for TP Link, with my UnitiLite I can easily play 16bit FLAC & WAV over WiFi and you would have thought TP Links over mains would have a higher throughput.

In a possible defence of TP Link I have found that the mains itself plays a very important role here - yes I know that would not be surprising.  But in older housed it is not uncommon for these devices to not work at all or to be patchy.

In my own case, as I said earlier, Powerline 500s will work with 24/192 WAV files at times (morning and early afternoon) but won't at other times (late afternoon and evenings), only managing 24/192FLAC files at these times. Why this should be the case I don't know, I can only assume that there is more rubbish on the lines at this time - but your guess is as good as mine.

But my experience over a number of years with TP Link is that there products are cheap but are quite often OK for home use.  For example their switches have never given me any problems.

Can't recommend Minim enough PeterJ, it is rock solid, gives you complete (and I mean complete) control over the decision tree and is cheap at the price of a non-mandatory donation only.  Plus it is supported much better than anything else I tried.

The only issue is that you have to install Java on your NAS, which was easy enough on my QNAP, but can't say about other NAS boxes.  But, as I said earlier, it does have support and if you go to the forum you might find threads on how to install it on your box.  Be surprised if you didn't.

Go for it!

I always forget to take mine (an old non-smart PAYG jobby) out with me - accidentally on purpose who knows?

I think they are terrible waste of technology and I hate it when you are on a train and everyone is at their mobile phones tapping away etc, ma Kindle paper-white and an mp3 player with plenty of Grateful Dead, Floyd, Mahler and Debussy is enough for me.

PeterJ

FWIW Ignore the soothsayers. Most of their advice is based on experience when the technology was in it's infancy, re: BT Comtrend adaptors. With good quality components, e.g. Devolo AV200 or better, correctly set-up, they can overcome problems associated with trying to run long cables, through multiple walls, with little or no impact on sound quality.

Dave

Recommending the use of either WiFi or Ethernet Over Mains as a solution to any problem is risky IMO...

Both technologies rely on transmission over what is inherently an uncontrolled medium and as such are very much subject to environmental influences which can mean that for some people they work perfectly and for others they are as unreliable as the weather in a British Summer.

If they work for you (and for most people they do) then great - I am very happy for you - but if they don't then there's little that can be done to make them work...

Phil

Exactly. Buy on that well known auction site. If they don't work for you sell them. Nothing lost.

Dave

A piece of wire is also, to some extent, an uncontrolled medium - metal purity, HF interference, metal/plug problems etc.  If this was not the case then the Ethernet standard would not need to be so complex.

But yes I do see your point and if a particular solution works OK then away then go slap on the Grateful Dead, Airplane or The Doors and away you go.

PLA technologty can work, it simply uses well tried and tested methods of sending data by phase modulating carrier  spot frequencies as used in some data radio. The only difference with PLA is that the antenna is connected at both ends rather than directly relying on electromagnetic radiation... But it does radiate none the less, physics has no way of knowing whether it's a PLA or purpose built radio transmitter antenna and so you should be prepared that there will almost be certainly side effects in sensitive electronics such as sensitive audio electronics, sensitive radio equipment, some wireless devices, and longline ADSL... so ultimately PLA will almost certainly limit the full potential of high quality audio equipment. However limitations from cabling, room reflections and speakers might be more of a compromise hiding the effects of PLA. But to put things in perspective if using PLAs I certainly would not worry about using SMPS on or near your audio equipment, as the noise from PLA almost certainly will be significantly greater.

Simon