Do we need PRat?

Are you Jon Snow????

Actually, pace rhythm and timing are all set by the musician. All music is set to a pace and classical music even has names for it such as Adagio, allegro etc. All music enjoys a time signature which defines rhythm, most obviously exemplified in the simple 4/4 beat, the waltz 3/4 or latin time signatures.

Timing is a bit more awkward for me as it's obvious when you hear that it's right but difficult to define what makes it right.

So do we need PR&T in our equipment? Well, we need our equipment to be able to reproduce the PR&T which is in the recording, but we don't want the equipment to induce the PR&T, or everything will feel like a rock song for example. Now, there are some who will tell you that Naim induces PR&T, and others who will tell you that it simply reproduces the PR&T. Who's right? God only knows...

Regards,
Frank.
All opinions are my own and do not reflect the opinion of any organisations I work for, except where this is stated explicitly.

Dear Frank,

The best of Naim does rhythmic address and coherence of ensemble very well. 

Certain models [particular some from Olive days] seem to emphasise the rhythmic element to some extent, and some to the point of a distorted impression of the music. I never could stand the CDX CD player for this very reason. However the best of Naim is very nicely balanced on this. It brings out the rhythm in the performance, whether this is the relaxed legato of a Beethoven adagio, or the biting aspect of a Vivaldi Concerto Allegro movement - there is not either a false sense of stasis or emphatic aspects [of rhythm] not in the real performance. All the while making a superb job of musical balances and instrumental timbres in equal measure. Important that the actual replay does not skew the balance of priorities of the actual performance recorded. Of course there are terrible recordings here and there that make satisfactory replay impossible whatever quality the replay chain has.

As for pop music, I could not possibly comment, except face to face!

Tab from George

Is rubato pace or timing?

Timing, in a word!

Pace is not a very musical description of tempo, which is the pulse of the music [often quotes in beats or crochets per minute], and tempo rubato is robbed time either faster or slower than the basic pulse. In other words it is a question of timing the [beginning and end of] a note or notes relatively early or late of the basic pulse.  A side issue is tenuto, where a note is held for its full duration, and just beyond, thus delaying the next note. Usually in music many notes start right on the pulse but are played somewhat shorter than the full written value with a small gap [articulation] before the next rhythmically stable note is played. This is called staccato and is the default unless the music is marked with slurs over the notes, which is called Legato, and, conversely, is playing the notes with absolutely no gaps, and in the pulse, but even then subjected to tenuto as and when by the composer with the word "ten." or a short bar over the note.

In stylish tempo rubato, the robbing is always payed back later so that the basic pulse is maintained. This gives a massive sense of momentum and forward movement even in slow tempi, and is what often marks out a really great performance of music in the rhythmic sense.

Hope that helps!

ATB from George

Thank you George, a thorough and knowledgeable explanation (which is why I'm so pleased you came back - I love to learn from those who know).

I think the point "In stylish tempo rubato, the robbing is always payed back later so that the basic pulse is maintained." makes your point very nicely.

Thank you

H

Based on a number of the postings on this thread the sceptic in me says that many of the posters on our forum appear to know more about hifi than they do about real music.  If you have ever listened, or played music (not an absolute pre-requisite, by the way) then you will understand the significance of timing or PRAT. I'm deliberately avoiding the semantics of whether pace and rhythm and timing are connected: call it PRAT or timing, up to you. The point is that how ever accomplished a piece of hifi kit might be at reproducing a 3D image or making a nice sound, it is of absolutely no use unless it can place the timing of the musical components of the piece with fine accuracy - see my earlier example of the Monk track.  

I should have said listened to real live music.  That's the acid test - timing (or PRAT) means your hifi aways makes it sound like real music in terms of when things happen.

They are inextricably linked, for the avoidance of doubt, and in absolutely every case of music performed as an ensemble or on a solo instrument.

ATB from George

Indeed, George. That's my point - some posters are attempting to separate them as if they were not.

Wow, what a rude, arrogant statement. You do not know the background of posters here.

Pace, rhythm and timing are totally linked of course, and nobody questioned it. But they are different animals. It's up to you to understand each term. In my opinion, only the latter is influenced by the hi-fi you use.

Indeed I do.

In the past, I've designed and built amplifiers, but I can't play a musical instrument to any real standard.  But just because I do know about Hi-Fi doesn't mean that I'm completely ignorant about music though.  I suggest there are others in a similar position as myself.  Nor do I think it necessarily a bad thing.

bluedog, I only separated them to try to identify how they are manifested. If not, we might as well not have Pace Rhythm & Timing.

After all, a metronome keeps perfect time, but it's not particularly tuneful.

Regards,
Frank.
All opinions are my own and do not reflect the opinion of any organisations I work for, except where this is stated explicitly.

I don't know how you can quantify PRaT, however Naim does a great job of making music replay compelling. Certainly some music CDs this seems more apparent.

I have compared the Nait 5i-2 with Mk1 XS and subjectively thought the former had more PRaT.

Seeing Wilco Johnson at Shephard Bush not that long ago, that band has amazing PRaT, first class musicians :-)

There are many variables of course...

I certainly would not want Naim to change!

That will affect pitch and pace in equal measure (and applies to turn tables as well).

Now where does that PRAT come from?

With a Hugo playing into my 202/200 I hear plenty of PRAT 

Also I heard plenty of that with a Linn KDS into 552/500. I thought the KDS/1 was a polite source? It was full of fun and energy !

So is it due the amp or the source?

It is a matter of time alignment of frequencies? The 552 apparently has such a filter?

Analogmusic, can you explain what you are trying to say when you mention 'time alignment of frequencies' please?

perhaps you are talking phase distortion, where a well designed amp will try and provide consistent phase shift across its working bandwidth?

In respect to the 552, the time alignment filter boards were introduced (IIRC) late on in the 32.5 preamp and have carried on in some form through the range since. They were Bessel type and so as Simon says provide a linear phase response.