New revised power amps from Naim
Posted by: meni48 on 18 May 2015
I purchased in April nap500 according to the importer assurance I should get the amp in July, whether I will get the amp with the new output transistors developed or with the previous transistors? the reason to my Question is that he didn`t know of the new development that will occur Later and its causes some problems with the deal that i already closed with him before.where do i stands with my rights.i need your opinion thanks
If, however, you place an order for a to be build item, which is due an upgrade, Naim do know about what's coming and you could argue that they have an ethical duty to inform the customer of the pending upgrade and new product soon to be released. Press embargo or not, they don't need to go into specifics but should inform the dealer and customer of a pending change to allow for him/her to hold off his/her purchase until the news has been released into the public domain, if he/she so wishes.
Possibly Naim should do this the moment they take the first step on the upgrade/replacement path.
The moment they conceive the idea to improve something they should (effectively) stop selling the existing model. It is difficult not to see this as a win/win situation for everybody.
The customer would never know if a product they have auditioned would be available to buy and Naim would be able to sell, perhaps, a quarter of the units they do today. This would result in lowered sales income, reduced R&D and fewer new products - everyone happy.
Add to this a requirement to keep products at the factory while they run in and I'd think you were teaching Naim a lesson about how to run a business - into the ground.
This is an example of buggering up the general to address a relatively minor problem of specifics.
If it were important to Naim that their customers are happy, and I believe it is important to them, such action would be in their own interest.
"Customers" here = the small number of those who buy around the date of change against 100% - that small number who do not.
As an aside, you are somewhat contradicting yourself, if as you say the number of customers who buy around the date of change is so small, Naim have got nothing to worry about. It surely won't drive their business into the ground.
How do you think Naim could implement this?
Do you propose that Naim change their business processes such that they check every order if it involves a product that has an update pending and ask the customer if he/she really wants to order the product?
It makes the ordering process more complex doesn't it?
But we don't know that, do we? So yes it would complicate things more than what they are now. Doesn't mean it cannot be done. Business is never about the easiest way out, there are so many things companies have complied with over the years because of consumer demand, take the whole green movement as an example. If you have ethical standards life gets more complicated, welcome to the real world....
According to the first post the deal was closed. If the OP asks for a favour and gets it then the cusomer should be grateful. If he does not all he has to do is request the upgrade and pay the costs. Was some p/x involved, was the dealer willing to shrink his margin in order to accomodate the OP, we don't know. I don't see any reason why Naim are required to do anything other than supply what was ordered.
If, for example, you buy a new car from BMW, and change your mind about the spec you want after it has entered the production run, they will allow you to change your order just by paying the difference in price, if any. There will obviously be a time delay, but that's all.
Apple, when they released a new OS and used to charge for it, always made it available free of charge to recent purchasers.
They do it because they know that disappointed customers are bad for business, and that is more important to them than making a customer stick to a contractual obligation they are unhappy with.
In this case just how many 500s do you think are "flying" out of Salisbury?
I'm not sure but I can't think there are too may £20K amps sold per week. If there are significant ie more than 5 a month I will be surprised.
Obviously the 300,250 and 200 would increase those numbers. By way of compensation the "lower" amps would be cheaper to convert to the new format, no less annoying obviously.
If the product was a mass market one and not built to order it would indeed present logistical problems. You can't stop producing until the replacement model is ready.
Aren't the Classic and 500, Statement built to order?
If the order was placed after the announcement why not give the customer the option of waiting albeit at the new price, or accepting the current build?
If the order was placed before the announcement the problem is, letting the cat out of the bag before the public announcement.
How many more cases of this type are waiting to see the light of day. We're not just talking about the NAP500 here.
Not an easy one to resolve. Only Naim and the distributor know the implications.
Production has to be switched from the current model to the upgrade at some point. Built Friday = Current. Built Monday = Upgraded. Or do Naim shutdown half of their production line for a month or three?
It will be interesting to see what the OP has to report later.
To the OP, I would not settle for anything less than the very latest version as just announced.
According to the blurb in What Hifi the 500 DR will be available in August, so given the natural way of things when shipping, customs etc are taken into account it's looking like September if the originally ordered item does not leave the factory. I hope it sounds better to his ears or it will be a longer wait plus more money for more stress!
The best outcome to all this is that Naim offer the OP the new upgrade when available on a unit delivered now, all costs paid, including shipping.
Or he is given the option to wait until August (or later) for a brand new unit.
Why should Naim pay for the upgrade? There is a new price for the DR. Are future customers now subsidising others who have the deep pockets to buy a 500 in the first place? No, it is not the best outcome for all customers. If you want more than you agreed to, pay for it, or someone else will.
Don't think anyone has suggested that meni should get the "DR version" for the same price as it attracts a premium.
Allen has suggested exactly that. There is no ethical, commercial or customer focus reason for Naim to do anything (Thay are already announcing that they will be doing upgrades and likely will, again, be doing them at a beneficial rate). Meni has a contaract with his dealer. If he wants to get out of it then he negotiates with them. Absolutely nothing to do with Naim. The company continually bends over backwards to keep previous customers happy and that separates them from almost all of the competition.
Andy
If you ordered a car with a 6 mth delivery lead time, and a new model was announced meanwhile, you wouldn't get the new model. That's it.
Not many times if any that a new version of a car is released without months of hype preceding it.
You get the same choice once you know cancel or reorder the new one.
If you ordered a car with a 6 mth delivery lead time, and a new model was announced meanwhile, you wouldn't get the new model. That's it.
In my experience, you would. You would have a longer wait, possibly a price difference to pay, and no guarantee that the new model would actually be any good until you'd driven it.
I'm not talking about a 'brand new' new car BigH. Say a revised engine with more power, heightened efficiency, improvements here and there, etc.
An announcement is an announcement, whatever the industry. Doesn't change your rights, nor should it change your expectations.....
@ Chris above,
Which may prove to be the same here, depends a lot on the dealer, and some other factors (like the dealer's negotiation with Naim). That's all customer relations management, but I was talking about legal rights / consumer law etc. You are entitled to what you ordered, not to what subsequently becomes available, or the new standard.....
Production has to be switched from the current model to the upgrade at some point. Built Friday = Current. Built Monday = Upgraded. Or do Naim shutdown half of their production line for a month or three?
It will be interesting to see what the OP has to report later.
The 500 series is not a production line.
Cottage industry. Whatever
The fact that the OP ordered a 500 doesn't change the fact that it is not just the 500 that is being updated or that all customers should be treated equal.
Mani, quite a few replies since you posted yesterday, but none of us know whether you will be getting an "old" 500 or the "new" version.
Have you asked your retailer/importer - I note you are in Israel. ? he migh be able to find out for you what you are slated to get.
If you are getting an "old" one, why not ask for it to be retained by Naim and upgraded to the the new version as soon as Naim start doing modifications ? It might cost a bit more than a simple "new" one but at least you will be getting what you currently would like, at least soundwise.
Wow, you guys astound me sometimes. Leaping to the defence of Naim and comparing this with car production. This is not a £1k amp, not a £5k amp, this is a £20k amp. It's not a product that gets updated every year or two (like cars). The fact that no-one from Naim has mentioned back to the dealer / distributor that they might want to hold off on the order, knowing they were announcing a 'new' model the month after the order, well that is astonishing in itself, but if true, shows really how Naim have changed in the last couple of years.
As for you guys spouting the model business ethics, I do wonder how any one of you would feel, if you had stumped out this sort of money. Easy to talk when you are not affected.
+1
Along similar lines as Allen , I find it incredible that a couple of months after the NAC272 was released to be partnered with any classic range amp they decide to announce this DR upgrade . If I was one of these affected customers / dealers I would be furious as the timing is very poor , hopefully Naim will do the right thing here and honour these people with a free upgrade or at least a very reasonable one.
Peter .
Interesting points from many angles.
For what it is worth, I would expect that if I ordered a certain model that was refreshed between the order be placed and delivered, that I would take what I had ordered without complaint, or even annoyance. That is just me. Not everyone would be so meek. But developments never cease.
On the other hand, if the opening poster wants the latest iteration of the NAP 500, then he should talk to his retailer as soon as possible.
Though Naim has no actual obligation to do this, it would be a sign of goodwill that those in this position were the first to receive the new type build when it is ready.
But it is neither up to Naim or the retailer to bear any cost in this. For the new version the price differential should be added to the purchase price already paid and without quibble. Just that these customers who have placed orders perhaps might have first priority deliveries of the new build if they are happy to pay the price differential.
Perhaps that is too simple, but I venture the thought all the same.
ATB from George
As happens so often, a lot of kerfuffle following a post, this time by meni, without anyone being told what response he has had from the dealer. Would it not be preferable to find out what the dealer has arranged and then see if it is right to criticise Naim
Easy to talk when you are not affected.
Because talk is free and should remain so. You are not affected and find talking easy?
You say you did not mention money in a particular post, but you did mention money, quote "... Naim offer the OP the new upgrade when available on a unit delivered now, all costs paid, including shipping... " or maybe it is just ambiguous enough to not be about Naim's money.
I find the argument about it not being a 1grand or 5grand piece of kit rather compelling though. The squeaky wheel gets the oil, and I do hope Meni gets what he wants 'now' rather than what he wanted 'then'.
George has it just about right in his post, as did Don, this should be able to be sorted, and without affecting, queue-jumping or undercutting anyone else.
You all right, but my disappointment came from somewhere else. when you are negotiating you come from a stronger point because you didn`t paid him yet and than you get a good deal,Due to lack of future information , you are in weak position to deal again Especially when the product is not cheap as you understand. i`m saying again All this is happening due to lack of information and thats not fair
You contract to receive an amplifier that is over a decade old in design and find that there is some modification between your order, and delivery.. If the model was six month old, or even five years old, then one might sympathise, but it it very old and still very good. Of course a better implementation was going to come along, but you liked what was on offer at the time of order.
Read the previous posts ...
If you have to have the best Naim offer then forget the 500 and get a Statement.
ATB from George