Does the quality of USB matter?

Posted by: elkman70 on 23 May 2015

I have a Mac mini into Asynchronous DAC connected with an inexpensive USB cable.

 

As per the subject title, does the quality of the USB cable matter?

 

Regards,

 

Nick

Posted on: 28 May 2015 by JSH
Not necessarily!  Only if they're all in the right direction
 
10 individual small steps the wrong way are still the wrong way and 5 forward 2 across and 3 behind leave you where?  You may make a number and lurch off in sort of the right direction but whether you've gone very far and whether it's worth the time and effort is another matter!
 
 
Originally Posted by Foxman50:
Originally Posted by JSH:

Virtually no-one does double blind tests; and those who do may not so them properly anyway.

But here's a test.  Use your normal connection and one you think better.  Over a one month period, get a friend, partner, burglar or whoever to change the cable to another one without your knowing it from time to time at irregular intervals.  Without looking - no cheating allowed - write down which connection you think is being used each day. Repeat over a month at irregular intervals (ie 1 day cable 1, three days cable 2, 5 days cable 1 etc)

Over the month period, get your friend to make a minimum of 10 changes.  At the end of the month see if your success rate is greater than 50%

If it is, you can tell the difference and buy and use the one you prefer.  If you cannot, then don't waste money on a dearer one unless you are just trying to impress someone (with your profligacy!!)

I look forward to seeing some results posted some time, though I'm not holding my breathe

JSH

 

I think this misses the point. Some changes you make to a system are minor, one example is feeding WAV instead of FLAC to my streamer. Now I don't think i would have been able to detect the difference in anything other than a direct A/B test. I'm pretty sure i would not be able to pick up which is whcih in the scenario you mention above.

 

you could argue that if the change is so minor then it is not worth making the change, but if you make plenty of minor changes then they will add up to be a big change. Eventually 

 

Posted on: 28 May 2015 by JSH
Lots of specialist jargon here which always makes one suspicious; I've had plumbers like that!
 
Most things have side effects.  Viagra apparently can give you headaches, but whether that side effect is worth its other benefits I'll leave you to decide.  Same with USBs
 
 
Originally Posted by Simon-in-Suffolk:
Originally Posted by PepsiCan:
Originally Posted by elkman70:

I have a Mac mini into Asynchronous DAC connected with an inexpensive USB cable.

 

As per the subject title, does the quality of the USB cable matter?

 

Regards,

 

Nick

Please see the below link. It explains why Asynchronous USB is not the be all and end all, why USB cables matter and it explains some solutions.

 

http://www.computeraudiophile....st428008/#post428008

 

You can google John Swenson for the man's resume.

To me that post must be confusing to anyone who does understand how isochronous USB asynchronous audio works. There is no more 'pre processing' of the data frames over the twisted serial pairs than the frames used in SPDIF or Ethernet etc. The pre processing  really is about encoding binary data as analogue voltages for transmission over an analogue transmission line, and is the same method used for SPDIF, and some Ethernet speeds.. Namely Manchester encodings... and these encodings are undertaken by standardised specialist chips.

 

Now there is a specific negative (IMO) and source of interference with Async audio USB and is unique AFAIK to USB, and that is frame signalling from the receiver to sender is performed by temporarily making the physical twisted pairs unbalanced in a pulse.. This will create electrical noise and cause unwanted side effects in many systems in my opinion.

 

So I agree USB, like all electrical transmission access types I can think of can produce side effects from the process of performing the transport of data via analogue voltages and from the transmission line medium itself (which is why cables can have an effect)... but it is not specifically unique to USB.

 

Simon

 

Posted on: 28 May 2015 by tonym
Originally Posted by Wat:

Agree using well made cables are good idea, but wonder if we concern over small things when we could investigate more significant things. Applying room correction will make more difference than switching to specialist USB cabling system. It really struck me when I heard Linn Exakt system  sounding much better owing to Space Optimisation. If using Mac Mini into USB DAC you can apply rudimentary room correction with Audirvana or more sophisticated equalisation using Dirac. 

 

I read on forum folk use exotic Ethernet cables, put linear PSUs on NASs and .... list goes on. However, no mention of room correction. 

 

I'd recommend trying some room correction before buying expensive USB cables. You may find that a simple well made USB cable will be more than sufficient with correction applied. It may even mean you no longer crave to upgrade your speakers (although simply buying Magnepan has done this for me). 

Funny how so few people seem interested in room correction Mr Wat. Yet thousands spent on cables. It's the elephant in the...

Posted on: 28 May 2015 by Simon-in-Suffolk
Originally Posted by JSH:
Lots of specialist jargon here which always makes one suspicious; I've had plumbers like that!
 
Most things have side effects.  Viagra apparently can give you headaches, but whether that side effect is worth its other benefits I'll leave you to decide.  Same with USBs
 

Me too - especially when accompanied with a sharp intake of breath or  non technically accurate mystical terms - why make USB appear different from anything else without then explaining what is? - I agree most things have side effects or un intended consequences - wouldn't know about Viagra though 

Posted on: 28 May 2015 by james n

You've got me interested in the room correction - are you measuring and correcting for one position or are you doing more general optimisation ?

 

Maybe one for another thread ?

Posted on: 28 May 2015 by hastings

After working so hard to get a perfect reproduction of source it seems strange to adulterate it with room correction based on suspect algorithms and measurements from shoddy microphones.

Posted on: 28 May 2015 by ChrisSU
Originally Posted by hastings:

After working so hard to get a perfect reproduction of source it seems strange to adulterate it with room correction based on suspect algorithms and measurements from shoddy microphones.

I have no experience of this room correction stuff, but I'm not sure I agree with your viewpoint. Perfect reproduction....I think that holy grail is still some way away! As for adulteration, that's what room acoustics do, the correction software is just trying to cancel that out. And as for shoddy microphones, well they have a lot in common with the human ear, so maybe they're just what's needed 

Posted on: 28 May 2015 by tonym
Originally Posted by hastings:

After working so hard to get a perfect reproduction of source it seems a good idea to optimise it with room correction based on sophisitcated algorithms and measurements from high quality microphones.

There, corrected it for you.

Posted on: 28 May 2015 by mackb3
Originally Posted by Wat:

Agree using well made cables are good idea, but wonder if we concern over small things when we could investigate more significant things. Applying room correction will make more difference than switching to specialist USB cabling system. It really struck me when I heard Linn Exakt system  sounding much better owing to Space Optimisation. If using Mac Mini into USB DAC you can apply rudimentary room correction with Audirvana or more sophisticated equalisation using Dirac. 

 

I read on forum folk use exotic Ethernet cables, put linear PSUs on NASs and .... list goes on. However, no mention of room correction. 

 

I'd recommend trying some room correction before buying expensive USB cables. You may find that a simple well made USB cable will be more than sufficient with correction applied. It may even mean you no longer crave to upgrade your speakers (although simply buying Magnepan has done this for me). 

Wat,

 

Which storage drive enclosure and hard drives do you use with your MM? Also same for USB and Thunderbolt cables. Evaluating the move to your rig at some point. I have a spare MacBook Pro or a iMac I could repurpose specifically for a streamer/Server. In order to use Thunderbolt would have to procure a MM preloved model with TB. Assume the transfer rate is an advantage unless using FW drive?

 

Thx... M

Posted on: 29 May 2015 by mackb3
Originally Posted by Wat:

Hello M

 

I use Western Digital DUO which came with two 4TB Western Digital Red Drives. Mac Mini 8GB RAM & 256GB SSD connects using Thunderbolt cable which came with WD DUO. You can configure WD DUO as RAID 0, RAID 1 or two discs. I use RAID 1. Also have Seagate GoFlex 3TB Firewire Drive. Bought WD DUO because ran out of space on Seagate. Now use WD for PCM & Seagate for DSD. Drives are quiet & fast. (Avoid USB drives to dedicate MM's USB to DAC). To protect setup I connect MM & disks to CyberPower UPS (pure sine wave): silent, shuts down gracefully if power cut & isolates setup from mains. Not noticed obvious change in sound quality from disk, TB/FW cable choice or UPS.

 

Audirvana Plus v2 loads songs into memory to play. iTunes is my music manager for PCM with Singer Song Reader displaying lyrics of currently playing song. Audio Units in Audirvana apply correction with low quality ears (mine) to optimise sound quality for my room. Audirvana's own music manager works for DSDs, but cannot apply correction to DSD yet. 

 

MM dedicated to playing music so not running non-essential programs. Can disable TCP/IP when playing music: control with BT keyboard/touchpad & HDMI to TV screen. Sometimes think eliminating networking improves sound quality, not totally convinced, & screen sharing & iPad control are lost without wireless networking. 

 

Room correction apart, the difference pre-DAC configuration achieves is nothing compared with choice of DAC & what comes after. 

 

Hope this helps, Wat

Yes, thank you.

 

M

Posted on: 01 June 2015 by Joe Bibb
Originally Posted by hastings:

After working so hard to get a perfect reproduction of source it seems strange to adulterate it with room correction based on suspect algorithms and measurements from shoddy microphones.

If your algorithms are suspect or your microphones shoddy then possibly.  It makes even less sense (to me) to get all precious about micro signal purity when more damage is being done elsewhere no matter how good the signal.  Besides, even quite modest digital sources these days are excellent.  These are not the days of noisy rumbling cheap TTs with old nails for cartridges v top end analogue.

 

I see (and hear) many more examples of large sums of money being thrown at kit and cables when far more harm is being done between speaker and ear.  I've played with an excellent solution a lot and have yet to hear a domestic system where it hasn't made a significant improvement and in each case the owner is now using it.  Indeed, it can be sobering to switch it out.