Driving etiquette………..

Posted by: Don Atkinson on 27 May 2015

Driving etiquette………..

 

I drive about 60 miles a day to/from work. I tend to use the dual carriageway trunk roads in the morning and the quiet country roads in the evening.

 

For some while now, I’ve observed the driving “tactics” of others and myself and wondered what is considered acceptable etiquette in various situations. The scenarios are numerous, so I’ll start with an over-simplified situation……….

 

For example, four-lane dual carriageway (two lanes each direction) with a National speed limit at 70mph. Long line of relatively slow moving traffic at 57mph in the nearside lane. Lone motorist following at 65mph and obviously catching up the long, slow line. Lone motorist notices that a long line of vehicles in the outside lane, travelling at 70mph are catching up with him. Decision time !

 

Does etiquette suggest the lone motorist should :-

Posted on: 13 June 2015 by Don Atkinson
Originally Posted by winkyincanada:

I'm particularly senstive to the undertone that cyclists deserve to be murdered because they somehow "have it coming".

Wow, winky, never mind sensitive, in this instance you are paranoid! There is no detectable undertone nor anything that Foxman wrote to suggest he considers cyclists deserve to be murdered! Heavens above !

 

I have never, ever met a motorist (or HGV driver) who considered that cyclists deserved to be murdered - (and had an action plan in place )

 

Sure, some drivers are maniacs on wheels (and are charged with manslaughter when things go wrong). Very occasionally a motorists has been known to deliberately crash with the intention of causing serious harm or death. A few weeks ago such a case came up in the UK where a man deliberately crashed his car killing his wife (ie passenger) who had just said she was leaving him - and i'm sure this sort of thing explains a few other mysterious crashes. He was quite rightly convicted of murder - but it wasn't a cyclist he murdered !

 

 

Posted on: 13 June 2015 by Don Atkinson
Originally Posted by winkyincanada:

I wasn't meaning to imply that you meant this at all. Apologies. I'm sensitive to it, that's all. I've had people tell to my face that cyclists deserve what they get.You/ve met a lot of awful people winky !

 

Your quote: "I do not rely on others to it for me."

 

Where we perhaps differ is that I passionately belive that we should look out for each other, not just look out for our own interests. Accordingly, I think it is enitrely reasonable to expect that motorists pay attention, Entirely with you on this so far get off their bloody phones, don't speed, indicate before truning, look before opening their car doors into my path, don't overtake where it is unsafe to do, don't "right hook" me etc. So it p!$$e$ me off that so many don't. Rant over ?

 

I also believe that they should be held fully accountable for their behaviour Totally with you on this part as well when undertaking what is the single most dangerous thing that most people do on a day-to-day basis. Not necessarily true in many cases, but hey ho let it go ! The penalties for murdering cyclists and pedestrians are laughable. Not in the UK it isn't, nor for murdering passengers in cars - see my post above.  It's often just considered an "oopsie". Again, not in the UK and based on my experience, not in Canada either If motorists can't be expected to drive with due care and attention (and many don't) then we've really lost the plot.Again, I totally agree

 

If you've not encountered motorosts who deliberatly try to hurt cyclists, you've not ridden in Australia.Fortunately it seems, I haven't !

 In the UK, the difference between murder and manslaughter is quite specific. Is that the case in Canada or do you not have manslaughter, just differing degrees of murder. ?

Posted on: 13 June 2015 by Don Atkinson

Anyway winky, do you have any views on how people should use the slip roads to join motorways/freeways/highways ? (assuming there are only motor vehicles around - no cyclists)

Posted on: 13 June 2015 by Foxman50

 

 

Originally Posted by winkyincanada:
Your quote: "I do not rely on others to it for me."

 

Where we perhaps differ is that I passionately belive that we should look out for each other, not just look out for our own interests. Accordingly, I think it is enitrely reasonable to expect that motorists pay attention, get off their bloody phones, don't speed, indicate before truning, look before opening their car doors into my path, don't overtake where it is unsafe to do, don't "right hook" me etc. So it p!$$e$ me off that so many don't.

 

I agree, my point was I don't rely on it

 

I also believe that they should be held fully accountable for their behaviour when undertaking what is the single most dangerous thing that most people do on a day-to-day basis. The penalties for murdering cyclists and pedestrians are laughable. It's often just considered an "oopsie". If motorists can't be expected to drive with due care and attention (and many don't) then we've really lost the plot.

 

undertaking is an issue and in all honesty im not sure where i stand. Problem is we either allow it or have a blanket ban. And that means including cyclists, motorcyclists, cars, vans, etc etc. nothing is perfect and having a cyclist or motorcyclist fly up on the inside of your can be very dangerous. Manoeuvres need to be made and a cyclist at 30mph travels a lot of distance in a few seconds and can easily catch motorists out. You may blame them but its a fact, I've been on both sides and trust me its not nice when it happens. As for motorcyclists, well who knows the speed their doing as they fly up the inside in traffic. And yes cars undertake as well. We should all drive convertables i think.

 

If you've not encountered motorosts who deliberatly try to hurt cyclists, you've not ridden in Australia.

 

i did spend a year there, but only as a driver. But we are talking normal people not Aussie's 

 

Posted on: 13 June 2015 by Foxman50
Originally Posted by Don Atkinson:

Anyway winky, do you have any views on how people should use the slip roads to join motorways/freeways/highways ? (assuming there are only motor vehicles around - no cyclists)

Don, i know you asked Winky But this is a pet hate of mine.

 

just one thing i would like to say. If you want to let a vehicle out from the slip road onto a dual carriageway, then by all means do so. However if you do not want to slow down or speed up to let them filter in, DO NOT and i mean DO NOT pull out into the outside lane slowing everyone else down just because you don't want to be slowed down.

 

its the responsibility of the person pulling onto the carriageway to do so in a safe and timely manor. By all means help them to do so safely but DO NOT block other people. Argh

 

Just my my opinion obviously.

Posted on: 13 June 2015 by Lionel

The rule of the road is (or should be) that the most vulnerable must be accorded the most care and attention from other road users i.e. the more metal you have around you the more aware you should be, and the more care you should take, of those with less protection.

Posted on: 13 June 2015 by MikeT.

Bicyclists in the US want to be treated with respect yet almost every cyclist I see on the road does little to abide by rules they are required to follow, namely to obey traffic rules as if they were driving a car. 

Stop at red lights, no weaving in and out of traffic to move up in line, signal when turning...you may get my point. 

I go to extremes to give the benefit of additional caution. I don't believe any motorist is out to do intentional harm, but it still aggravates the hell out of me when cyclists behave as though they have complete and indispuatable right of way. 

Vent completed. 

Posted on: 13 June 2015 by Foxman50
Originally Posted by Lionel:

The rule of the road is (or should be) that the most vulnerable must be accorded the most care and attention from other road users i.e. the more metal you have around you the more aware you should be, and the more care you should take, of those with less protection.

I'm sorry it is the responsibility of all individuals to take care of each other. Just because a cyclist will come off worse when coming into contact with a vehicle does not mean that the cyclist should not take as much care as the driver of the vehicle. In fact as far as i'm concerned the cyclist should take more care for this very reason. And no this does not mean the driver can be blasé.

Posted on: 13 June 2015 by Lionel
Originally Posted by Foxman50:
Originally Posted by Lionel:

The rule of the road is (or should be) that the most vulnerable must be accorded the most care and attention from other road users i.e. the more metal you have around you the more aware you should be, and the more care you should take, of those with less protection.

I'm sorry it is the responsibility of all individuals to take care of each other. Just because a cyclist will come off worse when coming into contact with a vehicle does not mean that the cyclist should not take as much care as the driver of the vehicle. In fact as far as i'm concerned the cyclist should take more care for this very reason. And no this does not mean the driver can be blasé.

Well of course there is the issue of personal responsibility but what about children? My point is that if you have the means to cause serious injury by what means of transport you happen to be in blaming others is not an excuse. i mean, "well officer, I killed this cyclist with my car because he was cycling in the road".

Posted on: 13 June 2015 by Foxman50
Originally Posted by Lionel:
Originally Posted by Foxman50:
Originally Posted by Lionel:

The rule of the road is (or should be) that the most vulnerable must be accorded the most care and attention from other road users i.e. the more metal you have around you the more aware you should be, and the more care you should take, of those with less protection.

I'm sorry it is the responsibility of all individuals to take care of each other. Just because a cyclist will come off worse when coming into contact with a vehicle does not mean that the cyclist should not take as much care as the driver of the vehicle. In fact as far as i'm concerned the cyclist should take more care for this very reason. And no this does not mean the driver can be blasé.

Well of course there is the issue of personal responsibility but what about children? My point is that if you have the means to cause serious injury by what means of transport you happen to be in blaming others is not an excuse. i mean, "well officer, I killed this cyclist with my car because he was cycling in the road".

I agree totally. Ok children to one side for a minute. my point is when i cycle i do my utmost to not offend other road users, to not create problems and to take care i am not putting myself or others in danger. I take the exact same attitude when i drive.

 

i don't take the attitude when cycling that its others responsibility to keep me safe. Yes they should and i hope they do, but I can't get up and have a moan when I'm dead on the floor can i. 

Posted on: 13 June 2015 by MikeT.
Originally Posted by Lionel:
Originally Posted by Foxman50:
Originally Posted by Lionel:

The rule of the road is (or should be) that the most vulnerable must be accorded the most care and attention from other road users i.e. the more metal you have around you the more aware you should be, and the more care you should take, of those with less protection.

I'm sorry it is the responsibility of all individuals to take care of each other. Just because a cyclist will come off worse when coming into contact with a vehicle does not mean that the cyclist should not take as much care as the driver of the vehicle. In fact as far as i'm concerned the cyclist should take more care for this very reason. And no this does not mean the driver can be blasé.

Well of course there is the issue of personal responsibility but what about children? My point is that if you have the means to cause serious injury by what means of transport you happen to be in blaming others is not an excuse. i mean, "well officer, I killed this cyclist with my car because he was cycling in the road".

Of course children should be watched with an additional caution, thats ridiculous to drag that red herring into this discussion.  

We should always watch for others interest when driving or cycling ( my apologies in advance to those cyclists who are cautious and courteous ) and if you are driving a car, additional responsibility falls on you to be extra vigilant, but come on, adult cyclists should try to meet auto drivers half way don't you think?  

Posted on: 13 June 2015 by Don Atkinson
Originally Posted by Foxman50:
Originally Posted by Don Atkinson:

Anyway winky, do you have any views on how people should use the slip roads to join motorways/freeways/highways ? (assuming there are only motor vehicles around - no cyclists)

Don, i know you asked Winky But this is a pet hate of mine.

 

just one thing i would like to say. If you want to let a vehicle out from the slip road onto a dual carriageway, then by all means do so. However if you do not want to slow down or speed up to let them filter in, DO NOT and i mean DO NOT pull out into the outside lane slowing everyone else down just because you don't want to be slowed down.

 

its the responsibility of the person pulling onto the carriageway to do so in a safe and timely manor. By all means help them to do so safely but DO NOT block other people. Argh

 

Just my my opinion obviously.

I'm with you on this one.

 

Wonder what other people think ?

Posted on: 13 June 2015 by Lionel
Originally Posted by Adam Meredith:

Wow - who put the Hornet up you guy's arses.

 

Apparently me.

 

For which I would apologise - other than that the brawl seems to involve the usual suspects who are just twitching to re-vist the 2 wheels v. 4 wheels thing. Again

 

I don't think you actually need an excuse.

It is not always about you, Adam

Posted on: 13 June 2015 by Adam Meredith
Originally Posted by Adam Meredith:
Possibly, being only a bike rider, I am more protective of myself than car drivers feel the need. Bikers know that all car drivers will try to kill them.

Perhaps I see the spark of this veritable explosion of rage - while failing to understand its consequences.

 

My words "being only a bike rider" were intended to mean "I don't have a car - I only have a motorbike". I do not drive.

 

Not some sad faux-Uriah Heep passive-aggressive declaration of assumed attitudes of others.

 

"I am more protective of myself than car drivers feel the need." 

 

Here - I mean I feel more vulnerable (being on a motorcycle - which is more vulnerable) than would a car driver in a car - who is less vulnerable than I (on a motorcycle).

 

I do not mean "Woe is me, mere humble bike rider with you toffs in your cars not caring for my safety as much as I demand you do"

 

I think I shall now flounce. It may calm things down.

 

 

 

 

 

Posted on: 13 June 2015 by Adam Meredith
Originally Posted by Lionel:
It is not always about you, Adam

You may be right - about this.

Posted on: 13 June 2015 by winkyincanada
Originally Posted by MikeT.:

Motorists in the US want to be treated with respect yet almost every motorist I see on the road does little to abide by rules they are required to follow, namely to obey traffic rules as if they were driving a car. 

 

I fixed it for you...

 

(Anyway, respect also has nothing to do with it. Cyclists just want motorists to stop running them down.)

Posted on: 13 June 2015 by MikeT.
Originally Posted by winkyincanada:
Originally Posted by MikeT.:

Motorists in the US want to be treated with respect yet almost every motorist I see on the road does little to abide by rules they are required to follow, namely to obey traffic rules as if they were driving a car. 

 

I fixed it for you...

 

(Anyway, respect also has nothing to do with it. Cyclists just want motorists to stop running them down.)

Hehe!  OK so motorists ignore rules too. Respect has everything to do with it, for motorists and cyclists. 

Posted on: 13 June 2015 by winkyincanada
Originally Posted by MikeT.:
Originally Posted by winkyincanada:
Originally Posted by MikeT.:

Motorists in the US want to be treated with respect yet almost every motorist I see on the road does little to abide by rules they are required to follow, namely to obey traffic rules as if they were driving a car. 

 

I fixed it for you...

 

(Anyway, respect also has nothing to do with it. Cyclists just want motorists to stop running them down.)

Hehe!  OK so motorists ignore rules too. Respect has everything to do with it, for motorists and cyclists. 

Respect is Ok as far as it goes, but the real issue is that the consequences of poor behaviour are so asymmetrical. With respect to motorist-cyclist interaction, pretty much the worst I can do on a bike is to annoy a motorist. The worst a motorist can do to me is to kill me.

Posted on: 13 June 2015 by MikeT.

You are certainly right in terms of consequences but I cannot count the times a cyclist has blown by a line of stopped cars, and crossed an intersection without a pause. There is a point where tragic consequences are a result of ignoring safety precautions, oh and by the way, traffics laws.  Motorists need to pay extra attention when approaching cyclists and motorcyclists but that doesn't give either party a free pass to ignore laws that are designed to protect both. 

Posted on: 13 June 2015 by Dungassin
Originally Posted by Steve J:

When I rode a bicycle and motorbike I took my father's advise. He told me to assume every other road user is an idiot.

I only drive a car these days, but that's MY basic assumption.  I think to myself, what stupid thing could he/she do?  It's amazing how often they then proceed to do it.  

Posted on: 13 June 2015 by Huge
Originally Posted by Tony Lockhart:
Well, in 34 years of driving I've never seen a biker hit by a car or, come to think of it, even come close. Yes, there are plenty of stupid people on the road, some in cars and some on bikes. People, not drivers or bikers.

Well,

 

1  I've had a car pull up behind me while waiting in a queue for a roundabout. then 'nudge' the rear wheel of the bike twice.  As I started to write down his number he accelerated knocked the bike out of the way and drove over it, and hit me with the body of the car.

 

2  I've had a BMW overtake me on the left on a wet roundabout and then move right hitting me and pushing me toward a traffic island, I swerved further right and passed the island on the wrong side.

 

3  I've had a van pull along side me on a dual carriageway, slow down to match my speed and the swerve left.  Despite the impact I managed to stay on the bike, but slowed down.  When he realised I was then behind him he then slammed his brakes on (but I was already breaking and so avoided the collision).

 

All these were deliberately caused collisions.  This is what bikers sometimes have to contend with from car and van drivers.  And this is just the actual deliberate collisions, there are many more instances of simple intimidation.

Posted on: 13 June 2015 by winkyincanada
Originally Posted by MikeT.:

You are certainly right in terms of consequences but I cannot count the times a cyclist has blown by a line of stopped cars, and crossed an intersection without a pause. There is a point where tragic consequences are a result of ignoring safety precautions, oh and by the way, traffics laws.  Motorists need to pay extra attention when approaching cyclists and motorcyclists but that doesn't give either party a free pass to ignore laws that are designed to protect both. 

Yes , you're annoyed by the cyclists actions (and maybe feel a sense of injustice or even jealousy), but you're not endangered by them. When a motorist chooses to squeeze past me at speed when there is no room to do so, drives at excessive speed or checks their email/text (and I cannot count the times these have happened) it places my life at risk.

Posted on: 13 June 2015 by joerand
Originally Posted by winkyincanada:
 When a motorist.... checks their email/text (and I cannot count the times these have happened) it places my life at risk.

Indeed! Whether you're a cyclist or fellow motorist, hands-on cell phone users (while driving) put other's lives at risk. Media reports here in the US unequivocally say cell use while driving is equal to or even worse than intoxicated driving. And hands-on cell use is illegal where I live. Yet, I always see drivers looking in their laps as a matter of routine in all driving conditions. Mothers with kids in car seats, doesn't matter. To them, the virtual world is apparently more precious than reality.

Posted on: 13 June 2015 by Chris Dolan
Originally Posted by Dungassin:
Originally Posted by Steve J:

When I rode a bicycle and motorbike I took my father's advise. He told me to assume every other road user is an idiot.

I only drive a car these days, but that's MY basic assumption.  I think to myself, what stupid thing could he/she do?  It's amazing how often they then proceed to do it.  

As a car driver, cyclist and biker (and occasionally a 17 seater minibus restriced to 62 mph driver) I use the basic assumption that any road (a pavement user) might do something stupid - including me 

Posted on: 14 June 2015 by Foxman50
Originally Posted by Huge:
Originally Posted by Tony Lockhart:
Well, in 34 years of driving I've never seen a biker hit by a car or, come to think of it, even come close. Yes, there are plenty of stupid people on the road, some in cars and some on bikes. People, not drivers or bikers.

Well,

 

1  I've had a car pull up behind me while waiting in a queue for a roundabout. then 'nudge' the rear wheel of the bike twice.  As I started to write down his number he accelerated knocked the bike out of the way and drove over it, and hit me with the body of the car.

 

2  I've had a BMW overtake me on the left on a wet roundabout and then move right hitting me and pushing me toward a traffic island, I swerved further right and passed the island on the wrong side.

 

3  I've had a van pull along side me on a dual carriageway, slow down to match my speed and the swerve left.  Despite the impact I managed to stay on the bike, but slowed down.  When he realised I was then behind him he then slammed his brakes on (but I was already breaking and so avoided the collision).

 

All these were deliberately caused collisions.  This is what bikers sometimes have to contend with from car and van drivers.  And this is just the actual deliberate collisions, there are many more instances of simple intimidation.

Huge

 

Are you saying that you did nothing in any way to cause a reaction like you mention above. I'm not in any way condoning the drivers response, but i do find it very hard to believe these drivers took this cause of action for no apparent reason.

 

Obviously i was not there, but either you are extremely unlucky or there was a reason. We all tend to think we are angels on the road, but really.

 

Graeme